The Book of Lost Tales Part I: A Readthrough

[Boromir88]

I definitely get the Rivendell feeling when reading about Vaire and Lindo's place. There's something to an author establishing a "home." And not just a home in the sense of a physical residence, with walls and rooms...etc, but a "home" for the reader. Some place of rest and relaxation, cheer, tales, warmth, food. A place that conjures up these senses and emotions for the reader.

I think the success of The Lord of the Rings can be tied to The Shire being home. It's strongly established from the get go and Tolkien spends practically half of Book 1 in The Shire. Some might think that makes the story too slow, but in my opinion it creates a foothold for the reader. The Shire is meant to feel like "home," to the reader, and be just as bitter and difficult for the reader to leave as it is for Frodo in the story. So if the Cottage was in some way inspiration for Rivendell, as the "Last Homely House," that's good to draw on our feelings of home.

Originally Posted by G55

Quick note - in this Vaire related to the one we all know as one of the Valar? I know Tolkien reused many discarded names, often for completely different characters. But if I picked one of the Valar to tell a story, it would be Vaire. Like, if she would have been a Greek goddess instead of a Valie, she would have been the goddess of history. It would make total sense for stories - and what is history, if not stories? - to be told in her house.

No, I'm fairly sure this is a case of Tolkien re-using a name. Although, that doesn't mean there is no connection. I think it's clear when settling on Vaire, as one of the Valar, Tolkien was in some way drawing back to Vaire, the elf in Lost Tales:

"...nor, since Nienna is the wife of Mandos, has Vaire the Weaver, his wife in the later story, appeared, with her tapestries that portray 'all things that have ever been in Time,' and clothe the halls of Mandos 'that ever widen as the ages pass' - in Lost Tales the name of Vaire is given to an Elf of Tol Eressea." ~CT Commentary on the Coming of the Valar

Eriol saw now that they were in a short broad corridor whose walls halfway up were arrassed; and on those tapestries were many stories pictured whereof he knew not at that time the purport. Above the tapestries it seemed there were paintings, but he could not see for gloom, for the candle-bearers were behind, and before him the only lights came from an open door through which poured a red glow as of a big fire. ~The Cottage of Lost Play

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I definitely get the Rivendell feeling when reading about Vaire and Lindo's place. There's something to an author establishing a "home." And not just a home in the sense of a physical residence, with walls and rooms...etc, but a "home" for the reader. Some place of rest and relaxation, cheer, tales, warmth, food. A place that conjures up these senses and emotions for the reader.

I think the success of The Lord of the Rings can be tied to The Shire being home. It's strongly established from the get go and Tolkien spends practically half of Book 1 in The Shire. Some might think that makes the story too slow, but in my opinion it creates a foothold for the reader. The Shire is meant to feel like "home," to the reader, and be just as bitter and difficult for the reader to leave as it is for Frodo in the story. So if the Cottage was in some way inspiration for Rivendell, as the "Last Homely House," that's good to draw on our feelings of home.

Whenever I think of Rivendell, or the Shire, I think of a cheerful, peaceful, and calming place. Whenever something is associated with these places, I just get washed over by an overwhelmingly positive feeling.

[Findegil]

Posted by Formendacil:

Vairë in the Lost Tales is the wife of Lindo and the Cottage of Lost Play is their household. And, as indicated in my post above, I think the cottage compares well to the Last Homely House. Comparing it to the Halls of Mandos... maybe not so much.

But isn't it here were in these later times Olore Male ends while in Mandos ended in all times Qalvanda? Okay, there should be differences since the meaning of transport is quiet different (dream and death).

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Galin]

One minor question: when did Eriol learn the elf-tongue? Or, to put it another way, what language are they speaking in this tale? I assume--and I might be drawing off half-digested knowledge of later chapters--that they are speaking Elven (what would later be called Quenya), but as far as this chapter goes, there's no real evidence that I recall. For that matter, the Elves seem remarkably blasé about this human wandering around in their midst.

Yes, in The Music of the Ainur ('intro' of sorts) Eriol states that he had learned:

'that one fair tongue which the Eldar speak about this Isle of Tol Eressea -- but I marvelled to hear you speak as if there were many speeches of the Eldar: are there so?"

'Aye,' said Rumil, 'for there is that tongue to which the Noldoli cling yet -- and aforetime the Teleri, the Solosimpi, and the Inwir had all their differences. Yet these were slighter and are now merged in that tongue of the Island Elves which you have learnt.'

The early Qenya Lexicon is noted 'in the dialect of Kortirion'. I can't say that every early text will give the same account of tongues, necessarily, in all details, but in any event Eriol is talking to Rumil who had himself already 'worried at whiles even over the tongues of Men'

I suppose, within the context of the Cottage chapter, Eriol had learned during his journeying before he arrived at the Cottage? At the moment I can't recall if this is noted anywhere. Anyway, in a later 'Elfwine scenario', Elfwine arrives in Tol Eressea to find that his own tongue is spoken there.

[Galin]

A major note of what-if lingers about the poem. "The Trees of Kortirion," CT tells us, looks to have been revised nearly a half-century after its original composition, probably about 1962 for a possible inclusion in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. And we're not talking about the ORIGINAL version here, I want to emphasize; we're talking about a version completely overhauled in the wake of the LotR, which--had it been published--would have had equal canonical stature to any of the other Bombadil poems (I give them coëval status with The Hobbit myself).

I would have given it coeval status with all author-published works

This is astounding--to me, anyway--...

I find it very interesting too!

... because the revised, ca.1962, poem is still about a city titled "Kortirion." Is this still the Elvish name for Warwick-in-England? Or is it still the central city of Tol Eressëa? What about the whole "Kor" part of its name? Kôr, we will see more fully later, was the name in the BoLT of the city that the Silmarillion calls Tirion. Did Tolkien still envision "Kor" existing, perhaps as an alternate name for Tirion? Or is it simply part of the name of this other city, with a different--and nowhere elaborated--etymological history? It's hard to imagine that Tolkien didn't at least have a private half-answer in his thoughts to this question.

Cor still works for 'round' things in an Elvish scenario. In the late 1930s the base KOR- meant round, and kôr was a: 'round hill upon which Túna was built'. This connection to roundness, at least, survived into The Lord of the Rings, noting the Elvish word cormacolindor 'Ringbearers', and Tolkien might have retained the idea that a hill could be named for its roundness, as he had early on.

Anyway in this last version of the poem it is the 'Edain' who built Kortirion, and we have (I think) fading companies of Elves, which leads me to think we are not upon Tol Eressea here.

I imagine that Avallone replaced Kortirion as the major city of Eressea. Kortirion was 'central' to the Island if I recall correctly, and (if I again recall correctly) I think there is a hint that the Eressean tree hailed from the midst of the Isle... but I can't locate any late references that speak to Kortirion surviving as a city, from an external perspective.

Perhaps Gondolin was enough of a memory of Tirion in the later scenario? The earlier scenario was: 'Now this city they called Kortirion, both in memory of their ancient dwelling of Kor in Valinor, and because this city stood also upon a hill and had a great tower tall and grey that Ingil son of Inwe their lord let raise.'

But Gondolin was made in memory of Tirion anyway, and it was built upon an 'island-hill'.



Although I think an external connection to Warwick still exists, I'm not sure how this poem could be part of the Red Book and actually refer to an Elvish-named Warwick.

Perhaps that's part of why it was not used in 'Adventures' in the 1960s? It brings up questions of authorship and timing if it is really ultimately about Warwick in England. Could it be a place in Middle-earth built by the Edain... that survived? Still, I think 'England' surviving from the destruction of Beleriand was out by this relatively late date.

In short I'm confused

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galin

I would have given it coeval status with all author-published works

I wonder if you meant to say "coequal", rather than "coeval"?

coeval means "having the same age or date of origin" implying that all these works were written at the same time.

coequal means "equal with one another; having the same rank or importance."

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

I wonder if you meant to say "coequal", rather than "coeval"?

coeval means "having the same age or date of origin" implying that all these works were written at the same time.

coequal means "equal with one another; having the same rank or importance."

As the one who first brought the word up--Galin was responding to my post--I'll admit I tend to misuse "coëval," but even granting that I did, it's something of an apt mistake in this case, because "having the same age or date of origin" is a relevant matter in this case, because "The Trees of Kortirion" is a revision dating to the 1960s--in other words, its of an age with all the other post-LotR writings, even if the original version was contemporary of the Book of Lost Tales.

(My point of it being coëval with The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and The Hobbit was, admittedly, more focused on co-equality than contemporaneity, but I was referring to the canonicity of each, and in this I am grounding canonicity in the age of the texts--remember, the final version of The Hobbit in Tolkien's lifetime was promulgated in the mid-1960s. And depending on the extent to which you give weight to the dating of a text, the assignment of its canonicity is a point where coëval and coëqual can get stickily intertwined.)

((A further aside: I blame Tolkien for both my knowledge and my misuse of the word "coëval"--I am 99.999% certain I learned it in the context of "Manwë was coëval with Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar" --paraphrasing-- and this is illustrative of the point, perhaps, whereby age and equality intermingle. It gives nuance to the text that I did not pick up on as a teenager to note that Tolkien is saying that Manwë and Melkor are "of the same age" in the mind of their creator, but the reason this is relevant in the text is because Manwë and Melkor are both mightily powerful and important Valar, and while it may be a mistake on teenaged-me's part to read the text as being a direct proof of their co-equality, nonetheless their contemporaneity IS a proof of their similar status--not least because it does not seem to me that there should be time--and thus contemporaneity at all--in the mind of Eru, but also because "coëval" is essentially a synonym of "peer."))