Did Denethor see Frodo captured in the Palantir?

[FerniesApple]

Fair enough, but Denethor was pretty much teetering on the edge by the time Faramir was injured. So why the sudden collapse of his sanity into madness? Only a person who has been worn down by great peril snaps like that. Before Fara mirs injury Denethor had been in full control of his mind and was defending the city with some ability, he wasnt giving up to despair like film Denethor, so my question is would the apparent 'death' of Faramir, even though it must have been possible to ascertain whether he had a pulse or not, been enough to make Denethor go mad? My view is the long struggles with the palantir corrupted his mind, letting Saurons messages of despair fill him with dread. Denethor was a mortal man and not Young, he was still strong but not as strong as Aragorn mentally. After all Aragorn had experience of toughing it out in the wilds, good battle training, Denethor was used to an easy life in an Ivory tower.

[Belegorn]

When Gandalf and Pippin arrive at Minas Tirith Pippen takes note of Denethor during his battle of wills with Gandalf.

Originally Posted by RotK; Minas Tirith

Pippen saw a likeness between the two, and he felt the strain between them, <...> Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older.

He sees a vibrant man of power. However, when Faramir is wounded this changes. Also Faramir does have a Morgul-wound, so feeling for a pulse would not matter. He'd been sick for a while, poisoned. They all knew what would happen.

Originally Posted by RotK; The Siege of Gondor

Faramir lay upon his bed in the chamber of the White Tower, wandering in a desperate fever;

<...>

as he [Pippin] watched, it seemed to him that Denethor grew old before his eyes, as if something had snapped in his proud will, and his stern mind was overthrown. Grief maybe had wrought it, and remorse. He saw tears on that once tearless face, more unbearable than wrath.

<...>

"I sent my son forth, unthanked, unblessed, out into needless peril, and here he lies with poison in his veins. Nay, nay, whatever may now betide in war, my line too is ending, even the House of the Stewards has failed. Mean folk shall rule the last remnants of the Kings of Men, lurking in the hills until all are hounded out."

He's in despair about the fate of his son, "He might speak before the end. But that is near." and also about about the fate of the Dúnedain. But it seems clear to me that what has broken him is Faramir's injury and oncoming death, as he sat by his side and could care less about what was happening outside his halls.

However, Gandalf makes the claim that "the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind." [RotK; The Pyre of Denethor]

I would not say Denethor had it easy. Gondor was ever at war and I would assume that Denethor was a captain in the armies of Gondor under his father, just as his sons were under him. The Stewards, it seems, as with the kings, were always part of the army.

You have compared Denethor to Aragorn before and it is said that they were as like as to the nearest of kin. So physically and mentally it would appear they were very much alike and not quite so different [Appendix A; The Stewards]. They were even about the same age.

[FerniesApple]

I think Faramir was like Aragorn, but Boromir was more like Denethor, I seem to remember thinking that Denethor resented Faramir this likeness to the kings of Gondor. Denethor was a powerful and kingly man, but it was mostly pride imo.

[Belegorn]

He resented Faramir because he was like Aragorn. Bormoir was not like Denethor. Denethor was actually more like Faramir, he just liked Boromir. Faramir and Denethor acted more like Númenóreans. They were warriors and loremasters. Funny enough he berated Faramir for this apparently not realizing that he was seeing himself in Faramir, but he saw Aragorn, his opponent in Faramir. Again, keep in mind, "he was as like to Thorongil [Aragorn] as to one of nearest kin" [Appendix A; The Stewards] All three of these High Men were similar, but Faramir reminded him of Aragorn because of his High Númenórean bearing and friendship with Gandalf, like Aragorn. Finally:

Originally Posted by RotK; Minas Tirit

He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best.

Boromir was more like the Rohirrim, who loved battle.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

Denethor was a powerful and kingly man, but it was mostly pride imo.

Denethor was a High Man, a Dúnadan. He was a greater man than any other king unless it be a King of the Dúnedain.

Originally Posted by RotK, Minas Tirith

Denethor is of another sort, proud and subtle, a man of far greater lineage and power [than Théoden], though he is not called a king.

If you were to consider Denethor as compared to other men just recall the comparisons made of the Dúnedain to other men. The warriors of Rohan were like children next to them, and Éowyn saw that none of their warriors could compete with them. This would hold true of Denethor as well, being a Dúnadan.

[FerniesApple]

Denethor may be all that is noble, but he did resent Faramir and Aragorn, and thats pride, pride that he shared with Boromir, so in that way Denethor was in character more like Boromir than Faramir.

[cellurdur]

I think it is implied he did. What he says to Pipin certainly gives me the impression he has seen as much.

'Comfort me not with wizards!' said Denethor. 'The fool's hope has failed. The enemy has found it, and now his power waxes; he sees our very thoughts and all we do is ruinous.'

[Belegorn]

I do not doubt Denethor had similarities with both of his sons.

Originally Posted by FotR; Appendix A; The Stewards

Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old. taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles. Faramir the younger was like him in looks but otherwise in mind. He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing, and a lover of lore and music, and therefore by many in those days his courage was judge less than his brother's. But it was not so, except that he did not seek glory in danger without a purpose. He welcomed Gandalf at such times as he came to the City, and he learned what he could from his wisdom; and in this as in many other matters he displeased his father.

Here there is a picture drawn of Denethor and his sons. They are both like and not like him, as one would expect.

Originally Posted by RotK; Minas Tirith

He loved him [Boromir] greatly: too much perhaps; and the more so because they were unlike.

The last quote shows that Gandalf thought they were not alike, Denethor and Boromir. He figured that he loved Boromir so much because he was not like himself. His resentment of Aragorn is another matter, due perhaps to his guess that Aragorn, or Thorongil as he also knew him, was of the royal line of the North.

Originally Posted by Appendix A; The Stewards

Denethor <...> had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.

However, even with Aragorn their thoughts were basically similar and he reminded Pippin of Aragorn, rather than of Boromir.

Originally Posted by The Stewards"

in one matter only were their counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf.; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith.

Also note that Boromir had accepted Aragorn, Denethor did not. Faramir too had accepted Aragorn.

[Alfirin]

All of this bring up an interesting field for speculation. When Denethor views the Black Ships sailing up the Anduin in the Palantir, how much exactly did he see, or more to the point, if Sauron is controlling what the Palantir shows him by this point what exactly is he showing Denethor? Objectively, it is reasonable to assume Denethor saw exactly what he claimed to have seen, black ships sailing up the Anduin, and interpreted it (perfectly logically, given the circumstances) as meaning the Corsairs were sailing up from Umbar to Join the battle on Sauron's side. In and of itself this would be perfectly good reason to break down (especially since it would mean Lebennen would be enemy controlled by now, and Minas Tirith now more or less wholly surrounded with no way to flee left. But , given the kind of man Denethor is, I wonder if at this point Sauron, despairing with breaking him for good by displays of Mordor's might might, and havin some idea of how Denthor thinks. have tried a new tactic, one that actually worked, namely playing into Denthor's nature by letting (or making) him see what is ACTUALLY happening i.e letting him seen Aragorn routing the Corsairs and setting sail. By doing this he would basically be showing Denthor that, even if he could repulse Mordor's army, he would STILL "lose everything"; the king was coming back. I Denethor saw the Dead Men obeying Aragorn/Thorongil's orders, he would no longer have any doubts that Aragorn was the King, and any hopes he might of had of disputing the claim post battle would have evaporated. Objectively, Sauron probably knows that in the long run, while Denthor's death would weaken Minas Tirith, it alone could not make the city simply fall; that there would be others to take over command, that the Men of Rohan would be arriving at Pellenor soon, and (eventually) Aragorn himself was showing up and what that would likely mean. On the other hand, if he could play into Denthors fears so much as to focus on eliminating Aragorn as soon as he arrived or even go so far as to subtly insinuate himself deep enough in Dethethor's mind to, in a virtual sense, suggest the following "You know, if you turn traitor and ally Minas Tirith WITH me, we can get rid of this last threat to your rule and you and your sons can rule the city forever unthreatened. My servant made your son sick, do you not believe I could make him well again. Continue to oppose me and you are doomed, one way or another. Join me and your line is secure. I'm not all that confident Sauron would be that subtle at this point, but it Occurs to me that, from Denthor's POV, Aragorn's coming is as much "destruction" as the Corsairs.