Did Denethor see Frodo captured in the Palantir?

[littlemanpoet]

Well done Belegorn. This quote - from LotR - raises my issue back up again. As much as Tolkien may have tried to cover his tracks, have we a hole in the plot here? Or is there a reasonable/plausible explanation why Denethor could see Frodo as captive, knowing about the Ring, and Sauron not knowing about the Ring even while controlling what Denethor sees?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Or is there a reasonable/plausible explanation why Denethor could see Frodo as captive, knowing about the Ring, and Sauron not knowing about the Ring even while controlling what Denethor sees?

To me that still seems the most likely. Logically, Cirith Ungol would appear to be an obvious choice for Denethor to view.
I go back to the question of why Sauron would have thought that the knowledge of Frodo's capture would have been of any special heartbreak to Denethor. From Sauron's own demonstrable actions, it seems clear that he really did not view Frodo as anyone but a spy. There were so many other things Sauron could have "allowed" Denethor to see in order to create despair: the marching of the Haradrim to Mordor; maybe legions of Orcs overshadowed by wingéd Nazgûl; the Black sails of the Corsairs. Why would Sauron bother with making Denethor look at one little hobbit?

Also, Pippin's use of the Orthanc-stone was only a little over a week before Denethor's "final straw" viewing, March 5th. Gandalf surmised that that event would cause Sauron to be preoccupied with Saruman in Isengard. Sauron would have known that the hobbit in Cirith Ungol could not possibly be Pippin, so I think Sauron might have been more likely to associate Frodo with whatever had happened to Saruman, rather than Denethor.

[littlemanpoet]

And maybe Sauron's control of Denethor's viewing amounts to "Only let him view my strongholds, my places of power, my actions that make it look bad for Gondor." Certainly don't show any weaknesses. Which brings a question: I wonder if Sauron believed himself to have any weaknesses, other than the absence of the Ring?

[Belegorn]

I think any weakness Sauron saw was tied into the Ring. He did not believe anyone could destroy the Ring and it was not destroyed voluntarily. Gollum fell into the pit and Frodo's will could not bring him to do so. So he was looking at it from the angle that his enemies would try to use the power of the Ring to overthrow him.

[Alcuin]

Tale of Years (Appendix B) says that Shagrat arrived at Barad-dûr with Frodo’s cloak, mail-shirt, and sword on March 17. Even if we assume the Nazgûl that descended upon Cirith Ungol informed Sauron about the spy captured outside Shelob’s Lair and his escape in the company of someone else, there is no indication that Sauron understood its significance until Frodo put on the Ring in Sammath Naur. March 17 was four days after Faramir fell outside the walls of Minas Tirith, and Frodo fell wounded by Shelob. (Reader's Companion adds that Sauron had Shagrat executed.) Sauron’s actions indicate he believed Aragorn (or Gandalf) had the Ring: it readily explained Saruman’s defeat; thus Sauron’s haste to blockade Minas Tirith before Aragorn could arrive.

Frodo was wounded on the morning of March 13 (Hammond and Scull provide a synopsis of Tolkien’s notes on dates and times in Reader's Companion pp 486-487) and taken by Orcs “in the late afternoon or evening.” Faramir was wounded at about the same time, in the last hour of the day (“It drew now to evening by the hour…”, “Siege of Gondor”, p 819). After that, many residents of Minas Tirith saw in the Tower of Ecthelion “a pale light that gleamed and flickered from the narrow windows for a while, and then flashed and went out.” I agree with Inziladun that Cirith Ungol is one obvious place for Denethor to scry with the palantír. To Denethor’s credit, he give nothing away to Sauron. Had he exposed his knowledge of the Hobbits in Mordor, this tale would have a different end.

[FerniesApple]

I have a theory that Sauron never contemplated that the Ring was in the hands of the Hobbits until he 'saw' Pippin in Minas Tirith through the Palantir Denethor was using. He may have come to know that a Hobbit was living in Minas Tirith by forcing Denethor to give up information against his will, probing his mind or thoughts. I think Sauron thought the attack would come from Minas Tirith rather than through the backdoor, he allowed Denethor to use the Palantir, not because a mortal had the resilience to resist but to gain information and spread disinformation like propaganda. No mortal could resist a direct atack from Sauron, only Aragorn had the mental strength and that not for long on his own.

[Belegorn]

I'm not sure that Sauron could have forced Denethor to give up information against his will. The Stones were his to use by right and he had long practice in their use and obviously was strong-willed.

[Galadriel55]

I believe that Denethor could and did resist Sauron for a good while. However, his mental defense couldn't have lasted too long. I don't think he gave away too much information over the years of using the Palantir. He was weakened by the end - but that's because of all his previous hard-won victories. Aragorn isn't the only strong-willed guy around.

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

I have a theory that Sauron never contemplated that the Ring was in the hands of the Hobbits until he 'saw' Pippin in Minas Tirith through the Palantir Denethor was using.

What happened to "Shire... Baggins..."? Sauron knew a hobbit had the Ring for a long time. Furthermore, how is this relevant? Sauron saw Pippin when the said hobbit looked into Saruman's Palantir, much before he came to Minas Tirith. And either way, how does the Ring itself tie in?