Middle-earth What-ifs

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

2. If the Steward Boromir, affected by the Morgul-wound he suffered at the hands of one of the Nazgul, refused to rule in the name of the line of Elendil, and attempted to claim the crown of Gondor for himself.

I actually have a bit of a story developed to go with this one!

"How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not?" he asked. "Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty," my father answered. "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice." (The Two Towers: The Window on the West)

All dates indicated are of the Third Age.

1944: the death of King Ondoher of Gondor, his sons Artamir and Faramir, and his nephew, Minohtar, in the battle against the Wainriders.

1945: The Steward Pelendur and the Council of Gondor search for a member of the House of Anarion to take up the Crown of Gondor. Prince Arvedui of Arthedain puts forward a claim for himself, as the Heir of Isildur, once a King of Gondor, and for his wife, Princess Firiel, daughter of King Ondoher. Though according to Numenorean law, Firiel could take the Crown in her own right, becoming first Ruling Queen of Gondor, the Steward Pelendur convinces the Council to deny their claims. They choose instead the General Earnil, victorious commander of the Gondorian armies against the Wainriders and a descendant of Telumehtar Umbardacil. Arvedui does not contest the decision. Earnil II is crowned.

1974: The Kingdom of Arthedain is invaded by the armies of Angmar, led by the Witch-King, and thoroughly defeated. King Arvedui escapes into the Blue Mountains, and then north into the Forodwaith.

1975: Prince Aranarth implores Cirdan to send a ship to find his father. After Arvedui boards, however, the ship is lost at sea, taking the King and many important heirlooms with it. With the destruction of Arthedain and the dispersal of its people, Aranarth declines the title of King, instead calling himself Cheiftain of the Dunedain.

Prince Earnur arrives with a fleet and armies sent by Earnil II for the aid of Arthedain against Angmar, but too late to prevent its destruction. Cirdan and Earnur's forces together route Angmar's armies, though the Witch-King himself escapes after humiliating Earnur. (It is here that Glorfindel gives his famous prophecy: "[The Witch-King] will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.").

1998: Pelendur dies, and the Stewardship passes to his son, Vorondil; hereafter the Stewardship becomes hereditary, passing to the Steward's son or nearest male heir.

2000 - 2002: The City of Minas Ithil is besieged by forces out of Mordor led by the Lord of the Nazgûl, whose identity as the Witch-King of Angmar is still unknown. The city falls after two years, and is occupied by Mordor's forces. The Dunedain refer to it hereafter as Minas Morgul.

2043: Death of Earnil II. Earnur is crowned.

2050: Earnur accepts a challenge to single combat from the Witch-King of Angmar, who reveals his identity as the Captain of the Nazgûl and Lord of Minas Morgul. Earnur goes to Minas Morgul and is never heard from again. Having no heir and his fate left unknown, the Steward Mardil, called Voronwe, rules in Earnur's name for many years.

There are no heirs of the House of Anarion whose lineage is beyond question, and Aranarth puts forward no claim on the crown. Out of a desire to prevent another civil war like the Kin-Strife, no King is Crowned, and Mardil Voronwe becomes the first of the Ruling Stewards.

2063: Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur to investigate the nature of the Necromancer (as yet unknown to be Sauron) who flees (to Mordor). Khamûl the Black Easterling rules Dol Guldur in Sauron's absence, and the shadow upon Mirkwood lessens. The Watchful Peace begins.

2063 - 2460: The Watchful Peace: It was during the Watchful Peace that the first 10 Ruling Stewards (Mardil Voronwe, Eradan, Herion, Belegorn, Hurin I, Turin I, Hador, Barahir, Dior and Denethor I) governed Gondor, in which Gondor saw less battle than it had in centuries. They used the time to recuperate Gondor's strength and prosperity.

Though the Nazgûl are quiet in Minas Morgul and Dol Guldur at this time, they too are building their forces in preparation for an invasion of the west. In Minas Morgul, a new breed of Orks is created: the Uruk-hai, larger, stronger, more disciplined and less daunted by daylight.

2460: Sauron returns with greater strength to Dol Guldur; the Watchful Peace ends.

2475: Uruk-hai armies led by the Witch-King invade the eastern Gondorian province of Ithilien, and sack Osgiliath, the former capital. Boromir, son of Steward Denethor I, successfully defeats the Witch-King's armies and repels them from Osgiliath, but the great stone bridge over the Anduin is destroyed and the city left nearly depopulated. Neither Osgiliath nor Ithilien are resettled at this time.

"Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-King feared him. He was noble and fair of face, a man strong in body and in will, but he received a Morgul-wound in that war..." (The Return of the King: Appendix A: The Stewards)

Boromir fights the Witch-King in Osgiliath, and forces the Witch-King to withdraw, though Boromir suffers a Morgul-wound in the battle. The healers of Minas Tirith save Boromir's life, and though he bears the wound for the rest of his life, his strength of body and will are undiminished. Those who knew him, however, saw a change in him afterward; a shadow had fallen upon his heart, and his pride grew apace.

2477: Death of the Steward Denethor I, Boromir takes up the Stewardship.

Boromir, as commander of Gondor's armies under his father, Steward Denethor I, had answered the first major challenge to Gondor since the collapse of Arthedain and the failure of the Line of Anarion. He had managed to drive the Witch-King and his forces out of Osgiliath. This, especially, fed Boromir's pride. The Witch-King had destroyed the northern kingdom, reduced the heirs of Isildur to be Chieftains of a wandering people, and ended the line of Anarion in Gondor, but Boromir had bested him in battle.

In his mind, the House of Hurin had been chosen by the House of Elendil as their successor, and had proven themselves more than worthy of ruling in their stead, but a house superior in valour and ability to rule. They had kept Gondor safe through 400 years of peace, and he personally had repelled the very enemy that had cast down the line of Elendil in both the north and the south. This, most of all, spoke to the worthiness of the House of Hurin. He knew the people yearned for a King, and that some spoke of the heir in the north who might one day take the crown, but the stewards had long since hardened their hearts to this possibility, and Boromir decided they were no longer worthy to rule. He decided, after long deliberation, that the Crown should pass to the House of Hurin, and that he would do what was necessary to secure the support he would need to take the throne.

The Steward first speaks to his son about the issue, after thinking about it for some time and waiting to act. Cirion speaks against it, not against his father; he respectfully reminds his father of his oath as steward, to rule until the king returns, and that though Cirion agrees the kings may never return, it is not his place to deny them their right to do so. He notes that there will be several lords who will not stand for such a declaration, most especially the Prince of Dol Amroth. He reminds his father that even the matter of multiple Heirs of the House of Anarion brought the kingdom to civil war once before, and nearly a second time after the death of Earnur. Boromir agrees to set the idea aside (for now).

Boromir later approaches various lords privately with the idea, with varying results. The Prince of Dol Amroth in particular vocally indicates his support for the Line of Elendil, and states further that if the line truly did become extinct, that there were houses older and of higher descent than the Heirs of Hurin of Emyn Arnen who might take the crown, basically telling the steward to remember his place and not get uppity. “Thou may think thyself more deserving of rule than thy house which thou servest; so be it. I hold the same belief; but I hold to my vows to serve thee, as thou wilt hold to thy vows to serve in the name of the line of Elendil.” This wounds Boromir's pride, and the two are irrevocably pit against one another.

The Prince of Dol Amroth draws a number of supporters to his side. The Prince "respectfully" asks that the Steward publically denounce any desire to ever make a claim on the crown of Gondor. Boromir gives a very political answer that, while satisfying his detractors for the moment, really promises nothing.

When the Wainriders finally ride against Gondor, the Steward calls specifically on the Knights of Dol Amroth to come and ride in the van, hoping simultaneously to blunt the effectiveness of the chariots with the knights of Dol Amroth, and also cull their numbers so as to weaken them in a potential civil war. The Prince sends but a pittance, and the forces of Minas Tirith take the brunt of the losses for much of the battle. The Eotheod finally arrives under Eorl the Young [consider having Boromir establish close ties with the Eotheod earlier, perhaps Leod and Boromir establish an alliance and marry Eorl to one of Boromir's nieces or daughters]; while the Eotheod's losses are much heavier than in the OTL, the Wainriders are defeated.

Boromir names Eorl the Prince of Calenardhon in an attempt to gain a powerful vassal to use in any upcoming civil war, as well as reward him for his faithful service. Cirion had suggested giving him the province as his own kingdom, but Boromir dismisses the idea: 1. there are fewer of the Eotheod left ITTL, and thus they would have a harder time maintaining the kingdom independently, and 2. Boromir wants to replace Dol Amroth’s seat on the Council of Gondor with one of his supporters, and does so by designating Prince Eorl of Calenardhon in his place.

Eorl is conflicted, but eventually accepts the offer. While he was happy to be the ally of Gondor, he is unused to bending his knee to any man, and some of his men council him to seek independence, with or without Boromir's blessing. Prince Eorl bides his time.

The Steward eventually declares the Prince of Dol Amroth a traitor, that for his pride the province of Calenardhon nearly lost, and strips him of his title, declaring the lands of Dor-en-Ernil forfeit and the title of Prince dormant until a suitable heir is designated by Boromir. Cirion vocally protests this action in Council, but does not act against his father as of yet. Dol Amroth ignores the Steward’s attainting, claiming that his authority as Lord of Belfalas predates the existence of Gondor, and that Boromir has overreached his authority. "Thou servest in the name of the king, thou art not thyself king."

The Steward finally claims the Crown, with a number of the lords of eastern Gondor, including Prince Eorl, supporting King Boromir. He and Cirion nearly come to blows in the Council chambers when Boromir makes the announcement, and when the remaining Lords (all supporters of Boromir's claim) rebuke him, Cirion leaves Minas Tirith and heads to Dol Amroth. Boromir attempts to bar the gates to him, but too late, and send men to retrieve him without success.

The Prince of Dol Amroth and Cirion together declare that with his claim on the Crown of Gondor, Boromir has surrendered the Stewardship, and that Cirion has inherited the position. Dol Amroth swears loyalty to the Steward Cirion and calls upon "all loyal Men of Gondor" to do the same.

Meanwhile, Arahad, Chieftain of the Dunedain, comes south to stand against Boromir’s claim on the crown. When Arahad steps forward, both Dol Amroth and Cirion are hesitant. They ask for time to discuss the matter. None can deny his right to press a claim, but he must prove himself worthy if he is to wear the crown. Meanwhile, an Heir of Anarion appears, a descendant of [pick a later king of Gondor with daughters], whose ancestor had pressed a claim in the time of the Steward Mardil, but had been denied. Now, with multiple claimants, one of Isildur and another of Anarion, the former with an undeniable direct descent from Elendil, the other whose descent is less acceptable, but from the king more preferable to the Gondorian Lords, the matter becomes contentious. So, with three claimants to King, the western Gondorians are without a single leader. King Boromir has solid support, and the Eotheod follow him faithfully, but are also biding their time. Eorl considers the possibility that he might later buy his own crown by support Boromir’s claim on Gondor’s. If the war does not go as planned, then he will consider other methods to securing his rule over Calenardhon.

Boromir allies himself with Umbar, as Dol Amroth and Cirion have swayed the most populous regions of Gondor, and he needs the additional naval power to help him take/defend Pelargir. He offers to recognize their independence in perpetuity, as well as their claims to Harondor, if they support his war effort. The Lords of Umbar accept out of a desire to see a weakened Gondor, knowing that even if Gondor remains whole, it will be weakened. If Boromir succeeds, they have an ally on the throne and increased territory in the north. If he fails, their situation is little changed, save that Gondor has spent part of its power against itself. If Gondor remains divided, then the opportunities for piracy sponsored by Boromir increase and they can further weaken their enemies. This alliance is unpopular even among Boromir's supporters, but none abandon him, over it. Dol Amroth uses the alliance to further discredit Boromir.

Anorien for Boromir
Calenardhon for Boromir
Lossarnach for Boromir? (Likely)
Umbar allied with Boromir (hits Pelargir hard)

Lebennin... It'll be the main battleground, along with Lossarnach. Will Pelargir declare for Boromir or Cirion?

Dor-en-Ernil for Dol Amroth/Cirion (of course)
Lamedon for Dol Amroth/Cirion
Mornan for Dol Amroth/Cirion
Anfalas for Dol Amroth/Cirion

[Belegorn]

Boromir would be dead [2489] by the time the Wainriders attacked [post-2500]. When he got that Morgul-wound "he became shrunken with pain and died twelve years after his father." [Appendix A: The Stewards] I'd think Cirion would be the one making all these calls afterwards should he have ever intended to carry on his father's designs.

[Zigûr]

I don't think we've seen the erstwhile Corsair around here for a while but I thought this was the best place to post something which occurred to me today:

What if Sauron hadn't made the Ring?

I don't mean if he hadn't been an evil tyrant who wanted to rule the world or anything like that. I just mean "if he hadn't made the Ring".

By the time he'd made the Ring he'd completely lapsed back into evil, deeming that the best way to bring peace and order to Middle-earth was through his "benevolent" dictatorship. In fact he'd already been stirring up trouble in the East as early as 500 or so according to the Tale of Years, and Gil-galad sent his letter of warning to Tar-Meneldur in 882. One assumes that by the time he occupied Mordor and began building Barad-dûr, around 1000, he had servants and something of an authority: "Men he found the easiest to sway of all the peoples of the Earth."

In "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", no mention of Sauron being called a "Dark Lord" and utilising armies of Orcs is mentioned until after the forging of the One Ring. "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" briefly mentions the deployment of Orcs in the War of the Elves and Sauron.

So this had me thinking: did Sauron need the One Ring to become a "Dark Lord"? If he hadn't forged the Rings, would he have come up with some other equally fiendishly elaborate master plan, and would it have made him as simultaneously mighty and vulnerable as the Ring did? Would he have become a great tyrant among the Men of Darkness, but nothing more? And if so, would he thus be able to antagonise the Noldor and Númenóreans indefinitely, or would he have become trapped, like Morgoth, in one body, and thus ultimately vulnerable to being militarily defeated and killed?

I don't know what people might think about this. It's a bit daft, really, isn't it? But Professor Tolkien indulges in a bit of what-iffery himself so I think it's acceptable.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

So this had me thinking: did Sauron need the One Ring to become a "Dark Lord"? If he hadn't forged the Rings, would he have come up with some other equally fiendishly elaborate master plan, and would it have made him as simultaneously mighty and vulnerable as the Ring did? Would he have become a great tyrant among the Men of Darkness, but nothing more? And if so, would he thus be able to antagonise the Noldor and Númenóreans indefinitely, or would he have become trapped, like Morgoth, in one body, and thus ultimately vulnerable to being militarily defeated and killed?

As far as Númenor is concerned, I think the failure to make the One Ring is a non-issue.
As ME history stood, he had the One in his possession in his struggle against the Númenóreans, and it didn't bring him victory. Even with its power of Command, his troops would not stand against their enemies.

If Sauron had settled for the short-term goal of defeating Númenor (accomplished by guile in using their fear of death), and had not implemented his ring-plan, I think it would have been very possible to see in the Second Age a victory comparable to that envisioned by Gandalf much later, contingent on Sauron regaining the Ring.

'....his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts.'

ROTK The Last Debate

If Sauron had not split his spirit and power by placing it in the Ring, I don't see how Elendil, Gil-galad, Elrond, and Isildur could have done anything against him in the Last Alliance, beyond wounding him bodily. Obviously, no Ring would have meant no opportunity of divesting Sauron of such a large portion of his power to occasion his "maiming" in that event, and eventual permanent disembodiment at the Ring's destruction.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If Sauron had not split his spirit and power by placing it in the Ring, I don't see how Elendil, Gil-galad, Elrond, and Isildur could have done anything against him in the Last Alliance, beyond wounding him bodily. Obviously, no Ring would have meant no opportunity of divesting Sauron of such a large portion of his power to occasion his "maiming" in that event, and eventual permanent disembodiment at the Ring's destruction.

So for Sauron the Ring was actually something of an albatross.

The Last Alliance did defeat him militarily even with the Ring. Sauron also had a tendency to flee when placed in physical danger so I think the outcome of the War of the Last Alliance might not have been that different with or without the Ring.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Sauron also had a tendency to flee when placed in physical danger so I think the outcome of the War of the Last Alliance might not have been that different with or without the Ring.

Maybe he does not fight Gil-galad and Elendil?

[Pitchwife]

I take it we're talking about a scenario where none of the Rings of Power were forged, right? No One, no Nine, no Seven, and no Three.

I think Sauron probably wouldn't have enslaved the Men of Harad and Rhûn quite so easily as he did by baiting their kings with Rings, but I have no doubt he would have succeeded nevertheless. If even the Númenóreans fell for his gospel of Melkor he would have had little difficulty of passing himself off as a god (or at least his prophet) to people who never were taught any better. We're talking about Men whose ancestors never rebelled against Melkor-worship like the Edain did, there probably was a Melkorist tradition among them he only had to appeal to.

The Seven never affected the Dwarves much in Sauron's favour. Maybe the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm wouldn't have dug quite so deep for mithril without the Ring held by Durin VI fuelling their greed, and thus wouldn't have awoken the Balrog? An undiminished Dwarven kingdom in Khazad-dûm would have made a difference on the political map, I think.

And then there would be no Elven rings. No preserving a semblance of the Undying Lands in Lórien. Elrond, too, would be diminished, and Gandalf would have no Ring of Fire to help him kindle hearts in a darkening world. Like Sauron himself, the leaders of the resistance against him would be both less vulnerable and less powerful.

[Belegorn]

I think maybe things would have gone differently had he not made the Ring as far as his plans go. The Rings were meant to control the free people and they would be his slaves. I think in Morgoth's Ring Sauron would rather have slaves than destroy all his enemies. I do not know how he would go about enslaving all the other people. With the Rings enslavement only had limited success since the Dwarves were immune to that sort of thing and the Elves were able to sense their danger before it happened. Only the Men got ensnared. I think also he might have become less powerful with continued effort to dominate the people he became a tyrant over so maybe his sphere of influence grows less over the years. I think the Ring might have given him an endless reservior so that he did not have too much worry about wasting away his power like Melkor did.

How much did the Ring help in his influence over the people of Númenor aside from their own eagerness for immortality? When Sauron wore the Ring Tolkien says that he is actually more powerful, but even so he lost to the Last Alliance and was defeated in combat by Gil-galad and Elendil. He also could not even get his army to fight the Númenóreans when they were still plentiful as a people. So he would be wielding less power in the 2nd Age to some degree against his enemies.

There is the 3rd Age where he almost topples M-E anyway without the One. His enemies have grown weak through infighting, and skirmishes with men out of the east and south for a long time and he likewise had the Witch-king overthrow the North Kingdom. I'd think then that if he was still able to get Númenor toppled then he would probably just wear his enemies out over a long period of time, if not then he'd be done. Also I'd have to think about the Istari. Would Saruman have tried to become a tyrant himself, or would have have remained true to his mission? Apparently Saruman turned aside from his mission because he was in haste to get things done. Obviously he and Gandalf would not be expected to duel it out with Sauron anyway since they were to bring the people together to fight against a common foe.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I think also he might have become less powerful with continued effort to dominate the people he became a tyrant over so maybe his sphere of influence grows less over the years. I think the Ring might have given him an endless reservior so that he did not have too much worry about wasting away his power like Melkor did.

I think this is a good point. We know Morgoth became diminished over thousands of years of spending his power on projects, as well as leeching himself into the earth. Sauron didn't need to go quite so far for the very reason that Morgoth had done it for him, but he still needed some way of taking full advantage of the Morgoth-element in nature as well as tethering himself and his greatest works to Middle-earth indefinitely. Otherwise, he would probably have spent his comparatively small amount of native power very quickly. He might have reached the point where, if defeated and probably executed by his enemies, he would have been incapable of embodying himself again.

So the Ring, or something like it, was probably necessary, and would have been quite clearly so to his intelligent if evil mind. Note that he started building Barad-dûr around 1000, but did not finish it until after he had forged the Ring around 1600. Presumably he knew he needed the Ring or something like it to complete these kinds of projects. It seems a little odd to imagine the foundations (which were the part bound to the Ring) being made after the rest of the structure, but there you go. Perhaps a scenario where he didn't make the Ring (at least by choice) isn't very likely.

As Corsair_Caruso has pointed out, a more likely scenario is a failure to collaborate with the Gwaith-i-Mírdain. This would probably have been the most realistic alternative to what actually happened, and the one with the best outcome. As Elrond states, "It would be better if the Three had never been." (Although he may specifically be referring to a scenario in which the One is regained by Sauron there; the phrasing is a little unclear in context).

It's been noted that Sauron was still defeated by the Last Alliance even while he had the Ring, which is a legitimate observation. I think on the other hand, however, the flaw with Sauron's plan was that he didn't have time to prepare properly for war with Gil-galad and Elendil. He had expected, I believe, that the Númenórean invasion of Valinor would simply force the Valar to wipe out the Númenóreans, not that Eru would intervene in a way which pushed the Faithful to Middle-earth and destroyed Sauron's body. That doesn't really relate to the rest of the issue, but I think it does remind that there were practical considerations to Sauron's policies as well. The Ring was not necessarily an "albatross" as Kuru put it but it certainly couldn't do everything on its own: it made Sauron's work easier, but not effortless.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I think this is a good point. We know Morgoth became diminished over thousands of years of spending his power on projects, as well as leeching himself into the earth. Sauron didn't need to go quite so far for the very reason that Morgoth had done it for him, but he still needed some way of taking full advantage of the Morgoth-element in nature as well as tethering himself and his greatest works to Middle-earth indefinitely. Otherwise, he would probably have spent his comparatively small amount of native power very quickly. He might have reached the point where, if defeated and probably executed by his enemies, he would have been incapable of embodying himself again.

So the Ring, or something like it, was probably necessary, and would have been quite clearly so to his intelligent if evil mind. Note that he started building Barad-dûr around 1000, but did not finish it until after he had forged the Ring around 1600. Presumably he knew he needed the Ring or something like it to complete these kinds of projects. It seems a little odd to imagine the foundations (which were the part bound to the Ring) being made after the rest of the structure, but there you go. Perhaps a scenario where he didn't make the Ring (at least by choice) isn't very likely.

As Corsair_Caruso has pointed out, a more likely scenario is a failure to collaborate with the Gwaith-i-Mírdain. This would probably have been the most realistic alternative to what actually happened, and the one with the best outcome. As Elrond states, "It would be better if the Three had never been." (Although he may specifically be referring to a scenario in which the One is regained by Sauron there; the phrasing is a little unclear in context).

It's been noted that Sauron was still defeated by the Last Alliance even while he had the Ring, which is a legitimate observation. I think on the other hand, however, the flaw with Sauron's plan was that he didn't have time to prepare properly for war with Gil-galad and Elendil. He had expected, I believe, that the Númenórean invasion of Valinor would simply force the Valar to wipe out the Númenóreans, not that Eru would intervene in a way which pushed the Faithful to Middle-earth and destroyed Sauron's body. That doesn't really relate to the rest of the issue, but I think it does remind that there were practical considerations to Sauron's policies as well. The Ring was not necessarily an "albatross" as Kuru put it but it certainly couldn't do everything on its own: it made Sauron's work easier, but not effortless.

Two related points:

First, while you are probably right that some item like the Ring was necessary to provide that tie to the world that would allow Sauron to keep coming back as long as the Ring existed, in a way it embodied a form of pessimism for Sauron in that the Ring provided him a safety valve to come back in case he was defeated. However, it also provided an instant self-destruct tool (although, I can't recall, was that clearly understood at the time?) If I had been Sauron, I think I would have opted against the creation of the Ring and tried to avoid being defeated in the first place.

Second, to pose a silly question, could even the Ring have worked in this manner indefinitely? Say Sauron gets defeated repeatedly but the Ring still exists? Would the power provided by the existence of the Ring allow Sauron to keep coming back until he wins? In thinking about it, my belief is that it wouldn't have. Even in his origins, Sauron was not an infinite being and neither was the Ring an object of infinite power as it was created by a finite being. Given those limitations, I believe eventually one and or both of them could be depleted to the point of final impotence. Not that I think this is a particularly likely scenario, but I'm deliberately posing a hypothetical.