Gandalf, Moria, and Arrest

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

It appears that he and Aragorn had been arguing this point for a while, at least before they even reached Caradhras. It also seems that it was an option, at least so far as Aragorn was concerned, a last option.



As far as the wolves of which you seem to be dismissive it seems that the Company at least would disagree with your assertion.

The orc one fears was with reference to them being present in Moria, possibly. I was referring to orcs hunting the Company, having been spotted by Legolas as being only a few miles behind and tracking them. Wolves presented no more than an annoying choir like need for Gandalf to unwillingly use his Maiar powers to quench the fire.

[Leaf]

They also represented certainty that the fellowship has been tracked by the servants of Sauron. Hence the attempt to go through the mines to escape their enemies eyes for a while.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Leaf

They also represented certainty that the fellowship has been tracked by the servants of Sauron. Hence the attempt to go through the mines to escape their enemies eyes for a while.

I don't believe the wolves tracked the Company from Mordor. they stumbled on them by luck, whilst at the same time following orders to snuff out lands that the Company may pass.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I don't believe the wolves tracked the Company from Mordor. they stumbled on them by luck, whilst at the same time following orders to snuff out lands that the Company may pass.

Leaf said "tracked by Sauron" not "tracked from Mordor." Hardly the same thing.

It seems to me that Moria was as good a place as any to drop off the radar for a while. Remember that no one knew what Durin's Bane actually was, so the idea of entering its territory was not an assurance of anything.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Leaf said "tracked by Sauron" not "tracked from Mordor." Hardly the same thing.

It seems to me that Moria was as good a place as any to drop off the radar for a while. Remember that no one knew what Durin's Bane actually was, so the idea of entering its territory was not an assurance of anything.

Moria was a venture into the unknown, and with no news on Balin, even the dwarves were afraid of what became of his rule in Moria. The wolves may have been sent from Mordor, or they may have not. But the tracking and orders were directed from Mordor.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Moria was a venture into the unknown,

Why would Aragorn even contemplate arresting Gandalf when it appears that going through Mordor was not out of their equations anyway?

Originally Posted by FotR, The Ring Goes South

not until it is plain that there is no other way.

They did not know who or what was there, be it friend or foe. The impression you give is that they should never go there, and that Gandalf would have been forbidden to venture there by the Council, as if they knew they would encounter a Balrog.

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I don't believe the wolves tracked the Company from Mordor.

Well, nobody suggested that?!

Originally Posted by Moonraker

they stumbled on them by luck, whilst at the same time following orders to snuff out lands that the Company may pass.

Can you back this assumption up with textual evidence? It´s highly unlikely that those wolves "stumbled on them by luck". Hollin was under the observation of Sauron´s servants and there are several instances in the text that can confirm this. We have the lack of birds and other small animals which is noted by Aragorn. He takes this as a bad sign:

Originally Posted by Aragorn, The fellowship of the ring, Book II: The ring goes south

But I have a sense of watchfulness, and of fear, that I have never had here before.

Then there are the flocks of Crebain scouting over Hollin and Aragorn concludes:

Originally Posted by Aragorn, The fellowship of the ring, Book II: The ring goes south

Hollin is no longer wholesome for us: it is being watched.

And we have a strange shadow which passes over the stars. It was felt by Frodo and Gandalf, rather than seen. This was the earliest encouter with a Nazgul on a fellbeast!

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Leaf

Well, nobody suggested that?!



Can you back this assumption up with textual evidence? It´s highly unlikely that those wolves "stumbled on them by luck". Hollin was under the observation of Sauron´s servants and there are several instances in the text that can confirm this. We have the lack of birds and other small animals which is noted by Aragorn. He takes this as a bad sign: Then there are the flocks of Crebain scouting over Hollin and Aragorn concludes:
And we have a strange shadow which passes over the stars. It was felt by Frodo and Gandalf, rather than seen. This was the earliest encouter with a Nazgul on a fellbeast!

If you can prove to me that the wolves were fully aware of the whereabouts of the Company beforehand? If they were, then Mordor would have sent them and a force ten fold stronger to get the Ring back. The crows spotted them and reported this back into Sauron? Not conclusive. The more likely scenario is that the wolves were only one of a number of enemies sent by Mordor to scour the various lands, with these wolves being one of the few groups to have got lucky in being given the right direction to scour. Gandalf said all lands were being watched by the enemy, so Sauron's minions were scattered in different lands and lying in hope that the Company passed their way.

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

If you can prove to me that the wolves were fully aware of the whereabouts of the Company beforehand? If they were, then Mordor would have sent them and a force ten fold stronger to get the Ring back. The crows spotted them and reported this back into Sauron? Not conclusive. The more likely scenario is that the wolves were only one of a number of enemies sent by Mordor to scour the various lands, with these wolves being one of the few groups to have got lucky in being given the right direction to scour. Gandalf said all lands were being watched by the enemy, so Sauron's minions were scattered in different lands and lying in hope that the Company passed their way.

Well, that wasn't my point. I was trying to explain that the fellowship had good reasons to assume that they are no longer 'undercover'. They could not know if the wolves are just a scattered group or if more forces are on their way to hunt them down. So it's only reasonably to leave the open land.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

The orc one fears was with reference to them being present in Moria, possibly. I was referring to orcs hunting the Company, having been spotted by Legolas as being only a few miles behind and tracking them. Wolves presented no more than an annoying choir like need for Gandalf to unwillingly use his Maiar powers to quench the fire.

I doubt that the wolves have been "presented no more than an annoying choir" as Gandalf said of them, "who now will wish to journey south by night with the wild wolves on his trail?" These are wolves, rather than orcs, spotting/hunting the Company and it does not seem to me that Gandalf regards them as "an annoying choir". Not to mention the dual possibility that, "where the warg howls, there also the orc prowls." So instead of your scenario with "orcs hunting the Company" there in Hollin, it was rather wargs and Gandalf inquired how could any of them now wish to continue on the same course with wargs on their trail. According to you Gandalf could have easily dealt with them so his reluctance would be unnecessary. But if we are to believe the story rather than what one may project into the story Gandalf had no inclination to continue on the same path with wargs chasing them.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I doubt that the wolves have been "presented no more than an annoying choir" as Gandalf said of them, "who now will wish to journey south by night with the wild wolves on his trail?" These are wolves, rather than orcs, spotting/hunting the Company and it does not seem to me that Gandalf regards them as "an annoying choir". Not to mention the dual possibility that, "where the warg howls, there also the orc prowls." So instead of your scenario with "orcs hunting the Company" there in Hollin, it was rather wargs and Gandalf inquired how could any of them now wish to continue on the same course with wargs on their trail. According to you Gandalf could have easily dealt with them so his reluctance would be unnecessary. But if we are to believe the story rather than what one may project into the story Gandalf had no inclination to continue on the same path with wargs chasing them.

But in reality, when Gandalf does call on his Maiar powers, willingly or not, do wolves stand a chance with him? If you then add orcs to the equation alongside wolves (as in the Hobbit), then that is another question. In the Hobbit, Tolkein suggests Gandalf would have died after leaping off his pine tree and into the crowd of orcs and their spears.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Why would Aragorn even contemplate arresting Gandalf when it appears that going through Mordor was not out of their equations anyway?

They did not know who or what was there, be it friend or foe. The impression you give is that they should never go there, and that Gandalf would have been forbidden to venture there by the Council, as if they knew they would encounter a Balrog.

Aragorn could not have arrested Gandalf unless he had the soldiers at hand there and then ready to do so. But at a later date he may well have brought the subject up formally in Gondor, as he did with the Gondor guard who broke the law on leaving his post to save Faramir, but he was pardoned. Also, whilst there was fierce disagreement between the Company on going to Moria, it fell just short of mutiny, thanks to the appearance of wolves. It was Boromir who risked stirring mutiny above all.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Basically one important point regarding this whole thing -

- the main point of the quest with the Ring was to destroy Sauron not by power; it was a manifestation of rejecting any form of control. Starting to arrest people or exercising any form of control would be totally against the spirit of the whole "operation" and what the Free People stood for, or what they decided they were standing for.

So from that also follows, if we go down the line of talking about arrest, Aragorn should have first arrested Elrond and co. for deciding on such a ridiculous plan and putting the Ring into unnecessary risk by sending it to Mordor in the first place. Arguments had been put forward on the Council, making it clear that it was an incredibly risky option, and if there ever was a time for arresting someone, it might just as well been there. If Aragorn had been up to claiming his kingly power and arresting people for treason or endangering the fate of Middle-Earth, he would have probably agreed with Saruman the same way Boromir did at the Council: the best course is to claim the Ring, or at least keep it hidden. The madmen who wanted to run with it right into the heart of Sauron's realm should be arrested, in terms of public safety, to prevent them from doing anything crazy that could have cost the lives of thousands.

[Mithalwen]

What is more, surely Elrond and Cirdan should have arrested Isildur and forced him to destroy the ring. To reference another thread, this is a n aspect where understanding of Tolkien's Catholicism may be useful. It is about free will and it's proper exercise, not imposing and enforcing laws and hierachy.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Basically one important point regarding this whole thing -

- the main point of the quest with the Ring was to destroy Sauron not by power; it was a manifestation of rejecting any form of control. Starting to arrest people or exercising any form of control would be totally against the spirit of the whole "operation" and what the Free People stood for, or what they decided they were standing for.

So from that also follows, if we go down the line of talking about arrest, Aragorn should have first arrested Elrond and co. for deciding on such a ridiculous plan and putting the Ring into unnecessary risk by sending it to Mordor in the first place. Arguments had been put forward on the Council, making it clear that it was an incredibly risky option, and if there ever was a time for arresting someone, it might just as well been there. If Aragorn had been up to claiming his kingly power and arresting people for treason or endangering the fate of Middle-Earth, he would have probably agreed with Saruman the same way Boromir did at the Council: the best course is to claim the Ring, or at least keep it hidden. The madmen who wanted to run with it right into the heart of Sauron's realm should be arrested, in terms of public safety, to prevent them from doing anything crazy that could have cost the lives of thousands.

Elrond did not make the decision alone to send the Ring to Mordor, that was also the decision made by Aragorn and Gandalf, and in principle even Boromir agreed (though in his mind he obviously had reservations). An arrest could only be even considered if somebody within the company committed what could widely be agreed as mutiny or treason, and not just because Denethor only wanted the Ring hidden in Minas Tirith. Bormomir ultimately did commit treason to the cause of the quest, and Saruman before him. Gandalf was pushing the patience of Aragorn and Bormomir to the limits in suggesting that Moria was the route they should take. Gandalf even wanted to take this route from the off, which Aragorn overruled.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

What is more, surely Elrond and Cirdan should have arrested Isildur and forced him to destroy the ring. To reference another thread, this is a n aspect where understanding of Tolkien's Catholicism may be useful. It is about free will and it's proper exercise, not imposing and enforcing laws and hierachy.

Isildur could indeed have been put on trial for not getting the job done of destroying the Ring. But having the willpower in sending the Ring into the fire, as everyone knows, is easier said than done. He would have been pardoned.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

All 14 of them were already trapped before the orcs got there. So Gandalf with 12 Dwarves and a Hobbit were already out of the frying pan and into the fire before the orcs got there. You ask if the wolves stand a chance against Gandalf, the wolves had Gandalf trapped when orcs were not there, and Gandalf was not alone, he had 13 companions with him. So yes, I do think the wolves stood a chance against him.

I get the feeling in the Hobbit Tolkein doesn't bill Gandalf as a Maiar, only a wizard, who could indeed be harmed by ordinary weapons.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Gandalf was pushing the patience of Aragorn and Bormomir to the limits in suggesting that Moria was the route they should take. Gandalf even wanted to take this route from the off.

But the reluctance of Aragorn and Boromir was in neither case a reflection of a lack of confidence in Gandalf. Boromir simply knew Moria as a name of ill repute, and preferred a route that was more known to him and would get him to Gondor faster.

Aragorn's fear was for Gandalf, not the Quest in general.

'I will follow your lead now--if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!'

FOTR A Journey In the Dark

There was no thought that Moria would put the Ring in any particular danger, no more than it was already. So Gandalf had done absolutely nothing that would warrant "arrest", or even choosing a new leader.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

But the reluctance of Aragorn and Boromir was in neither case a reflection of a lack of confidence in Gandalf. Boromir simply knew Moria as a name of ill repute, and preferred a route that was more known to him and would get him to Gondor faster.

Aragorn's fear was for Gandalf, not the Quest in general.

FOTR A Journey In the Dark

There was no thought that Moria would put the Ring in any particular danger, no more than it was already. So Gandalf had done absolutely nothing that would warrant "arrest", or even choosing a new leader.

I think Tolkein made an error here. He is implying that Aragorn can forsee Gandalf's doom by entering Moria, when in reality it is more likely that any of the Company were in greater peril, not having any supernatural powers themselves. If Aragorn knew Gandalf was a Maiar, why would he forecast his doom?

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I get the feeling in the Hobbit Tolkein doesn't bill Gandalf as a Maiar, only a wizard, who could indeed be harmed by ordinary weapons.

You just used The Hobbit as part of your argument that the orcs had a better chance of beating Gandalf. Since we are both using this source, there is no need for you to dismiss it now, especially as it has been used in your arguments.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

In the Hobbit, Tolkein suggests Gandalf would have died after leaping off his pine tree and into the crowd of orcs and their spears.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

You just used The Hobbit as part of your argument that the orcs had a better chance of beating Gandalf. Since we are both using this source, there is no need for you to dismiss it now, especially as it has been used in your arguments.

I actually think this was just an inconsistency with the true nature of Gandalf as a Maiar from the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings. I don't believe anything but a Maiar could have killed Gandalf the Grey, and a powerful one at that.

[Smug the Fabulous]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I get the feeling in the Hobbit Tolkein doesn't bill Gandalf as a Maiar, only a wizard, who could indeed be harmed by ordinary weapons.

You would be correct. Remember which book was written first.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

But in reality, when Gandalf does call on his Maiar powers, willingly or not, do wolves stand a chance with him? If you then add orcs to the equation alongside wolves (as in the Hobbit), then that is another question.

All 14 of them were already trapped before the orcs got there. So Gandalf with 12 Dwarves and a Hobbit were already out of the frying pan and into the fire before the orcs got there. You ask if the wolves stand a chance against Gandalf, the wolves had Gandalf trapped when orcs were not there, and Gandalf was not alone, he had 13 companions with him. So yes, I do think the wolves stood a chance against him.