Gandalf, Moria, and Arrest

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

This question of 'arrest', Moonraker, ignores the nature of the Fellowship of the Ring as a group. From what was clear from Elrond in Rivendell, pointed out by Belegorn, the only person in the group on whom any formal obligation was laid was Frodo. For the others, no such obligation was laid on them in terms of any staying or going. The moral obligations on each was another matter, Gimli pointing out that 'Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens'. While Gandalf was accepted as leader, with Aragorn as his lieutenant, who would (and did) take over if anything happened to the former, neither of the two were appointed by Elrond, or elected by the Fellowship themselves.

Such a lack of formality would mean, in my opinion, that if the others of the Fellowship (including Frodo) rejected Gandalf's plan to go to Moria, all that would be needed would be to tell the latter that they didn't agree, and that if he insisted, they would accept Aragorn as the new leader. In this case, 'arrest' would not come into it. As long as Gandalf didn't interfere with the Fellowship, they would leave him alone, letting him decide if he wanted to leave or stay with them.

After what Boromir did to try and wrestle the Ring off Frodo by force, it is conceivable that any member of the Company who was no longer working in the interest of the quest would be cast aside, and possibly even held captive should the opportunity arise, with the agreement of a suitor, such as in Lorien. Gandalf had many friends in Middle Earth in high places, as did Aragorn. But no so much Boromir, and the evils he committed he later tried to atone for when trying to rescue Merry and Pippin. But by the letter of the law, he should have been arrested further down the line in Rohan if he had survived the orc attack,

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

But by the letter of the law, he should have been arrested further down the line in Rohan if he had survived the orc attack,

You're overlooking the fact that there was no law. In kingdoms such as Gondor and Rohan, laws were in effect to address various circumstances.
All that governed the Fellowship though were individual oaths and loyalties. It was an organization outside any official government (which is probably why it ultimately was successful ).

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

You're overlooking the fact that there was no law. In kingdoms such as Gondor and Rohan, laws were in effect to address various circumstances.
All that governed the Fellowship though were individual oaths and loyalties. It was an organization outside any official government (which is probably why it ultimately was successful ).

Figure of speech is the name of the game here. I am not saying Middle Earth has lawyers and a robust legal system.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

But no so much Boromir, and the evils he committed he later tried to atone for when trying to rescue Merry and Pippin. But by the letter of the law, he should have been arrested further down the line in Rohan if he had survived the orc attack,

Why would he be arrested in Rohan? He tried to attack Frodo but he never laid a finger on him. Arrest for attempted assault? He is a lord of Gondor, the heir to the Stewardship. The Stewards themselves were more noble than any other kings of men. You've got Gandalf and Boromir positioned for possible arrests, a Maia who was the prime mover of the defense against Sauron and a Lord of Gondor who was huge in the wars in the East. It appears that Boromir was looked kindly upon in Rohan, at least according to the account of Éomer.

Originally Posted by TTT, Bk. 3, ch. 2

That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders;

As an aside, would you have Isildur arrested as well since he did not destroy the Ring? Have Elrond and Celeborn jail him somewhere?

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Why would he be arrested in Rohan? He tried to attack Frodo but he never laid a finger on him. Arrest for attempted assault? He is a lord of Gondor, the heir to the Stewardship. The Stewards themselves were more noble than any other kings of men. You've got Gandalf and Boromir positioned for possible arrests, a Maia who was the prime mover of the defense against Sauron and a Lord of Gondor who was huge in the wars in the East. It appears that Boromir was looked kindly upon in Rohan, at least according to the account of Éomer.



As an aside, would you have Isildur arrested as well since he did not destroy the Ring? Have Elrond and Celeborn jail him somewhere?

Gandalf could have been in line for arrest in the event of stirring mutiny and trying to send the Ring into the lion's den through Moria against the will of the Company. But the wolves attacking their camp changed things, and all the company backed down and agreed to enter Moria.

Boromir was another matter, he tried to steal the Ring from Frodo, and theft of this magnitude does carry the penalty of jail in a civilised world.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Boromir was another matter, he tried to steal the Ring from Frodo, and theft of this magnitude does carry the penalty of jail in a civilised world.

Again, under whose laws? The attempt is made in an area without any local
people so not them.

Tecnically, Parth Galen is part of Gondor's Territory, and as such under Gondors law. And at the time of the attack, the ultimate arbiter of that law is Denethor, NOT Aragorn.If any question of crime arose, it would have to be Denethor, not Aragorn who would have to hear the case and pass judgement. Aragorn isn't king yet. Even once he became king, even if he did decide it was worth trying (which he probably wouldn't) he can't; few, if any, civilized legal systems allow for punishment for retroactive crimes (even if something is declared illegal now, you can't punish someone for doing it in the past, before it was illegal.) I will reiterate what the others have said, any decision by the rest of the fellowship to let Gandalf, Aragorn or anyone else be the leader, and to abide by thier decisions, was purely VOLUNTARY. Aragorn had NO legal authority to enforce any decision he made as law, heir to the throne or not.
Under the law as Denethor would interpret it, Boromir trying to take the ring would not have probably been considered a crime. Quite the opposite in fact, Denethor makes it pretty clear that in his book, NOT trying to take the ring and taking it back to Minas Tirith would have been the criminal act. Faramir makes it pretty clear in his words to Frodo in Ithilien that, by deciding to let Frodo and Co. go on thier way as opposed to taking them all back to Minas Tirith to see what Denthor thinks, he is techically comitting treason, and he damn well knows it.
As for trying to have him arrested in Rohan, how, the crime was not on Rohan soil, nor are any of the parties involved citizens of Rohan. Rohan literally would have no jurisdiction. And even if it did, it would not be much of a case. Remember the crime is only of great magnitude if you KNOW what the ring is, which no one in Rohan would. Short of someone in the party letting Theoden or Eomer in on the secret would would be dumb, especially Theoden (since, at that point Theoden would still be under Grima's ministrations so anything Theoden knew Grima would know and pass on to Saruman) it's just attemped theft of one gold ring. That's a minor crime at best, and given how well Boromir is thought of in Rohan, likely to be pardoned almost without thought.
To be honest, at this point, I think you are trying to cast Aragorn as some sort of absolute tyrant, doing whatever he thinks is best without council, and arresting or punishing anyone who disagrees with him. If he really WAS that kind of a person, there is no way he would have been allowed to join the Fellowship; it would be like letting Sauron himself join! From the beginning we are meant to see Aragon as a "good" and "wise" king to be, and a good and wise ruler does NOT just do whatever he wants. He may be the ultimate arbiter of the law, but he is NOT above it. To borrow a line from Tolkien's Friend C.S. Lewis's work "The King is under the law, for it's the law that makes him a king."

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Boromir was another matter, he tried to steal the Ring from Frodo, and theft of this magnitude does carry the penalty of jail in a civilised world.

Yes, but even if this is so, what has this to do with Rohan?

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Yes, but even if this is so, what has this to do with Rohan?

Rohan could have held Boromir in custody with the agreement of Theoden once the crime was explained. But that was never going to happen, as the Ring was mean't to be kept secret from Rohan, and the Company would not have risked going to Edoras with Isengard marshalling an army close by. Also, Denethor would have pleaded with Rohan to have Bormomir pardoned and released at once.

[Belegorn]

They were not in Rohan at that point and were headed East, not back west to look for kidnapped Hobbits. If any Lord had authority there it would have been Boromir's father.

[Moonraker]

Gandalf was not only answerable to Aragorn, but also to the Council. How could he possibly justify to the Council in going into Moria, even with wolves tracking the Company? Let's face it, wolves are hardly stiff opposition for a Company which boasts a Maiar and the heir of Isildur? Had it been a strong company of Orcs following them, as spotted by the keen eyes of Legolas, then that may have altered things, but wolves? I don't quite see it.