Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
08-02-2014, 02:19 PM | #1 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
Gandalf, Moria, and Arrest
The leadership of Gandalf was questioned by the Company when he decided to choose the dark and dangerous path into Moria. At this point, should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest and taken over the leadership of the Company to help protect the Ring?
|
08-02-2014, 02:34 PM | #2 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Is this a serious question?
Gandalf was the accepted leader not only of the Fellowship, but as far as Aragorn was concerned, the struggle against Sauron. Aragorn had been a pupil and friend of Gandalf for many years. He questioned the decision to go to Moria both out of a personal bad memory of a prior journey, and a foreboding that Gandalf would meet some peril there. His reluctance was not based on any lack of faith in Gandalf as a leader or a guide. And also, by what authority could an "arrest" have been made? That's lunacy. At most, any member of the company who wished was free to stop following Gandalf and go their own way. It's notable that none did so. Gandalf retained their trust even under the direst of circumstances.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
08-02-2014, 02:39 PM | #3 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
Quote:
Last edited by Moonraker; 08-02-2014 at 02:51 PM. |
|
08-02-2014, 03:34 PM | #4 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
Quote:
|
|
08-02-2014, 03:41 PM | #5 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
The fate of the Ring was the only thing that mattered. Aragorn could have declared that as of now he makes all the decisions and will lead the Company elsewhere, and not through Moria. He may have had no legal power to have Gandalf arrested at the gate of Moria, but that would have changed once he was sworn in as King of Gondor.
Last edited by Moonraker; 08-02-2014 at 03:45 PM. Reason: chan |
08-02-2014, 03:43 PM | #6 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
|
Even if they wanted to, none of them would be able to arrest Gandalf. None were forced to follow Gandalf.
__________________
"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
08-02-2014, 04:02 PM | #7 |
Dead Serious
|
Let's imagine, for one absurdly out-of-character second, that Aragorn WOULD have considered "arresting Gandalf" and/or asserting himself as the mutinous new leader of the company. Even had he already become King of Gondor and Arnor, or had the quest somehow waited until he was, this would still, as Aiwendil so succinctly put it, none of the authority required to arrest Gandalf.
Authority, never mind the actual ability. Gandalf was a subject of neither the Kingdom of Arnor nor Gondor, over which Aragorn's writ extended. He was, in point of fact, an emissary of the Valar, which, if we continue this line of thought, still leaves him a foreign national--and a foreign national rather in the diplomatic service. Beyond this, when at the walls of Moria, the company was not in the realms of Gondor or Arnor. Depending on where one draws the exact line, they were either still in Hollin or they were across the threshold into Moria. If one takes the first position, which I incline towards, then they were in what was essentially noman's land. I seem to recall it being suggested (I cannot recall the text--possibly the Epilogue?) that, by his marriage to Arwen, Aragorn's heirs would inherit the remaining tracts of land still belonging to the High Elves in Middle-earth, namely Lindon, Rivendell, and Eregion (all under the possession of the House of Finwë, which would be remain solely represented in her heirs after the passing of Elrond, Galadriel, and the eventually death/passing of Elladan and Elrohir). However, this had not happened at the time of the Fellowship. Hollin was still, at that time, a vacant kingdom under either the nominal lordship of the Heir of Celebrimbor (presumably Elrond, the next-of-kin as the nearest descendent of Fingolfin, who was Fëanor's heir after the exhaustion of his own line) or would have been kingdomless, but part of the greater domains of the High King of Eldar (depending on the tradition one accepts for Gil-galad's parentage, either Elrond or Galadriel). Either way, it is clear from the officially defined boundaries of Arnor--themselves not set until half an Age after the fall of Eregion, that Hollin was considered beyond-the-borders of Arnor, and thus outside the law of her king. If, however, we stretch the borders of Khazad-dûm beyond the doors to include the doorstep, Aragorn is STILL not king of that land, and even less likely to rule it, since I don't think he was going to be a polygamous king with a second consort wedded to the only daughter of Thorin III (and that's assuming that Dwarves can inherit through the female line--people seem to assume this of Fíli and Kíli, but I don't recall it ever saying in any text that Thorin Oakenshield's sister-sons were the Heirs of the Durin after him). Gimli, perhaps, as the ranking Dwarf (in all Moria, though they did not know it) could have done so, but we all know that he was on Gandalf's side for going IN to Moria.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
08-02-2014, 04:02 PM | #8 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
Quote:
Quote:
This charge would be far fetched to execute, especially if the Company did just fine in Moria, but nevertheless that is what the Moonraker likes, to stretch the realms of possibility to the limits. Last edited by Moonraker; 08-02-2014 at 04:41 PM. |
||
08-02-2014, 04:12 PM | #9 | |||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
|||||
08-02-2014, 04:19 PM | #10 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
All roads were being watched, so Moria was never going to be the safest option in any case. Gimli was not against going to Moria, but he was biased as a dwarf to want to go there for personal reasons (Balin, Mithril, the legend of Moria etc), and not for reasons in context of the quest.
|
08-02-2014, 04:23 PM | #11 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Quote:
If there had been a better way to go, Aragorn would have suggested one. Boromir's alternatives were logically shot down, leaving Moria the best option.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
|
08-02-2014, 04:30 PM | #12 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
They could have called on the help of the Eagles for safe passage to Lorien. Also, Rivendell had steeds available that the Nine could not rival. Not that Tolkein would have wanted that, it would have killed the story, and the plot.
Last edited by Moonraker; 08-02-2014 at 04:36 PM. |
08-02-2014, 05:05 PM | #13 | |||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
|||||||
08-02-2014, 05:16 PM | #14 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
Quote:
I cannot imagine Elrond supporting the road through Moria either. I seem to imagine him saying something like, ''I do not call this good counsel. Moria is a dark and unknown quantity to us, and we have no certainty that there is a way out of that accursed realm''. Sounds similar to what Aragorn said. If I was just an ordinary man or hobbit, I would not have followed Gandalf into Moria. Last edited by Moonraker; 08-02-2014 at 05:57 PM. |
|
08-02-2014, 08:39 PM | #15 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As was established by Elrond, no one was under any obligation to do anything except Frodo himself, so I don't see how trying to force the issue by coercing Gandalf would have achieved anything. Wouldn't Aragorn "arresting" Gandalf (as implausible as the notion is in itself) have completely contradicted the fact that in the end it was Frodo who really had the final say in what happened?
__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
|||
08-03-2014, 04:05 AM | #16 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Deepest Forges of Ered Luin
Posts: 733
|
Quote:
You're asking if Aragorn should have (...ahem...) arrested his longtime friend of about 60 years because they disagreed about a route? I was in the army, and I never thought of arresting someone I knew because they had a route or strategy different than mine; that kind of measure is saved for things like war crimes.
__________________
Even as fog continues to lie in the valleys, so does ancient sin cling to the low places, the depression in the world consciousness. |
|
08-03-2014, 07:22 AM | #17 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
Quote:
Granted, Aragorn was not Boromir, who almost certainly would have caused mutiny within the Company much earlier if he were held in the same regard as Aragorn. But Aragorn needed to see things in context of completing the quest, and saving Middle Earth, and if that mean't rejecting the road into Moria, then so be it. Had he then asked the Company to vote for who they would have followed, most likely it would have been Aragorn, not Gandalf, unless Gandalf repented. In the end, Aragorn & Boromir backed down and went with the plan of going through Moria after the wolves made an appearance. That really saved Gandalf from being cast aside as being respected leader of the Company. Gandalf, being a powerful Maiar, may have had full confidence in confronting the horrors of Moria, but none of the others (save Gimli) did and would have not gone in but for the wolves. Last edited by Moonraker; 08-03-2014 at 07:28 AM. |
|
08-03-2014, 07:34 AM | #18 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
Quote:
Rivendell to the Grey Havens (while the nazgul are in disarray and horseless). Then take a ship (hugging the coast---it's a medieval world traveling wise, so traveling by sea near the coast tends to be the fastest and safest way to travel. Go past the Isen (no further because of the threat from Corsairs) and then either travel across south Rohan (hugging the White Mountains) or cross Andrast and thru south Gondor. Cross the Anduin and then perhaps go around south Mordor or through another pass. Biggest immediate problems are crossing the Great River and dealing with Rohan or Gondor authorities---but they'd have Gandalf, Aragorn, and Boromir.
__________________
The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.' |
|
08-03-2014, 07:44 AM | #19 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Deepest Forges of Ered Luin
Posts: 733
|
Quote:
"Let's see... which way can we go?" "Well, south toward Isengard, or through Moria. I say Moria." "You're under arrest. Turn around and put your hands behind your back. Uh... Boromir- you and Legolas tie him up." On a side note, as I replied to this thread again, I realized that the forum may not have a sufficient variety of emoticons to further reflect a writer's feelings.
__________________
Even as fog continues to lie in the valleys, so does ancient sin cling to the low places, the depression in the world consciousness. |
|
08-03-2014, 07:50 AM | #20 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
Quote:
Whichever road they took, was there any realistic possibility of this being kept hidden from Sauron & Saruman? Both would have had spies covering all routes, and both would have assumed Gandalf was taking the Ring to Minas Tirith. They may as well have been escorted by a large army to Lorien if there was no hope of secrecy. The events in Moria would have certainly rang alarm bells in the Dark Tower as to the whereabouts of the Ring pretty quick. I have dealt with this in other posts earlier, so I do not wish to repeat myself. Last edited by Moonraker; 08-03-2014 at 07:59 AM. |
|
08-03-2014, 07:57 AM | #21 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Deepest Forges of Ered Luin
Posts: 733
|
"Dealing with" it in your original post would have been much better. As carpenters say: measure twice and cut once.
__________________
Even as fog continues to lie in the valleys, so does ancient sin cling to the low places, the depression in the world consciousness. |
08-03-2014, 08:13 AM | #22 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
Quote:
Was Frodo really in charge of the fate of the Ring? He was only the Ring bearer, not the leader of the Company. Also Elrond said other members of the Company could handle the Ring, if in great need. I don't recall Gandalf saying, ''Let the Ring bearer decide'', as in the movies? |
|
08-03-2014, 11:05 AM | #23 | ||||||||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
|
Quote:
Quote:
You say that, "the most important decision made as to how the Ring may be protected." Yet Aragorn seems to be placing his concern for Gandalf over the Ring in this instance when it concerned a possible route through Moria. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
"Wolves or Balrog? I'd rather take my chances with that Balrog. To Moria!" Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
||||||||||||||
08-03-2014, 12:04 PM | #24 | |
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
|
An absurd idea; moving this to N&N. Not sure anyone should get too worked up about this.
Please keep in mind: Quote:
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
|
08-03-2014, 12:53 PM | #25 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
If Aragorn was of the same temperament and mind set as Boromir, he would have pushed for mutiny and the arrest of Gandalf if the latter did not change his mind on taking the Company through Moria. It is the Wolves who really saved the day for Gandalf generally speaking. Thankfully, Aragorn was not so easily corrupted by the Ring, and was much stronger mentally than Bormomir to be able to resist the Ring.
Last edited by Moonraker; 08-03-2014 at 01:00 PM. |
08-03-2014, 01:11 PM | #26 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Aragorn's trust of Gandalf had nothing to do with the Ring. He had simply been a friend of Gandalf for a long time, and had also no doubt been instructed by Elrond and the Rivendell elves of Gandalf's importance to the effort against Sauron.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
08-03-2014, 01:20 PM | #27 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
Were Gandalf and Boromir not on good terms previously? No real fondness, but they certainly were on the same side. Yet his desire for the Ring made friendship second nature.
|
08-03-2014, 01:42 PM | #28 | |||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
|
Quote:
Quote:
I'm not sure an arrest would be the right word for what they would do had Aragorn decided to punish Gandalf. He obviously had no authority in that land anyway even if Arnor were still at its peak. Quote:
Quote:
Did the wolves make a vote unnecessary? I think so. I do think that Frodo would probably have taken Gandalf's lead anyways as he said he trusted in Gandalf's judgment. Even Aragorn, though against it, would have gone. Quote:
__________________
"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche Last edited by Belegorn; 08-03-2014 at 01:46 PM. |
|||||
08-03-2014, 05:32 PM | #29 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
|
I don't recall there being any ill-will between them. I got the impression, at least if I were in the Company's shoes, that Boromir would be one of those guys who said things that could rub you the wrong way but in no way meant to demean one. Boromir was one of most anybody who would look to use the Ring to do good but in the end it would turn to evil. He saw the Ring as a means to help Gondor, a weapon to use against the enemy. I do not think his intentions were bad. Just as it appears was the case with Saruman. Even though he tried to take the Ring by force in the end he was still on the side of the free people. I think it just ate at him that Frodo taking the Ring to Mordor rather than using it to destroy Sauron was like handing him a gift. I could see how he would have misgivings about Frodo taking the Enemy's weapon back to the Enemy to destroy it.
__________________
"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
08-06-2014, 04:18 PM | #30 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
Why didn't Gandalf not consider taking the Ring through Mirkwood, and for a time come under the hospitality of the Wood Elves?
|
08-06-2014, 04:49 PM | #31 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
For one thing, Dol Guldur was a location of Sauron's minions. Not to mention the fact that Thranduil's halls were quite a bit out of the way, and time was rather pressing.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
08-06-2014, 05:23 PM | #32 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
Legolas never once mentioned going that way, which is a little surprising. He would have known where his kindred were hidden as ambushers in Mirkwood, so they may well have received an escort for much of the journey once they went in. Though the Eye of Sauron may well have been fixed on and near to Dol Guldur.
|
08-06-2014, 05:40 PM | #33 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
|||
08-06-2014, 05:48 PM | #34 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
|
Quote:
__________________
"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
|
08-07-2014, 05:48 AM | #35 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
|
No authority
Quote:
Such a lack of formality would mean, in my opinion, that if the others of the Fellowship (including Frodo) rejected Gandalf's plan to go to Moria, all that would be needed would be to tell the latter that they didn't agree, and that if he insisted, they would accept Aragorn as the new leader. In this case, 'arrest' would not come into it. As long as Gandalf didn't interfere with the Fellowship, they would leave him alone, letting him decide if he wanted to leave or stay with them. |
|
08-07-2014, 11:34 AM | #36 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
Quote:
|
|
08-07-2014, 12:10 PM | #37 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Quote:
All that governed the Fellowship though were individual oaths and loyalties. It was an organization outside any official government (which is probably why it ultimately was successful ).
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
|
08-07-2014, 12:22 PM | #38 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
Quote:
|
|
08-07-2014, 01:22 PM | #39 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
||
08-07-2014, 01:39 PM | #40 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
Quote:
Boromir was another matter, he tried to steal the Ring from Frodo, and theft of this magnitude does carry the penalty of jail in a civilised world. |
|
|
|