What if Gollum had lived?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Nope, not speculation. If Gandalf thought Gollum as evil regardless of what influence the Ring had on him, he would not have offered pity, he would have ordered jail at the very least, or death. Instead, he thought Gollum had a small chance of being cured from the evil of the Ring, and had him treated well by the Wood Elves. Tolkein even suggests that the archers of Gondor killing him in the dark would also be against Gandalf's wishes. The creature was not wholly evil or wicked in origin, and deserved a second chance, to his mind at least.

It is speculation. You said:

so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

which is a guess about what someone (a fictional character, to boot) may or may not think when presented with a (another fictional) hypothetical.

Also, since I never said anything about executing Gollum, I'm not sure what your first quote in my reply here has to do with what we were talking about, or the price of tea in China.

[Inziladun]

Moonraker, this is a quote from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien that illustrates what I've been trying to say:

Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him....The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his path.

# 181

Again, Gollum was deserving of pity, but had he lived he would only have earned freedom to go and live (or die) as he pleased. Frodo might have offered to care for him, but I think it certain any offer of help would have been refused.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

It is speculation. You said:



which is a guess about what someone (a fictional character, to boot) may or may not think when presented with a (another fictional) hypothetical.

Also, since I never said anything about executing Gollum, I'm not sure what your first quote in my reply here has to do with what we were talking about, or the price of tea in China.

Probability is not the same as speculation. Hitler died, probably by suicide, but I do not recall that as being presented as speculation by most historians. When the evidence for a case is compelling but not absolute, probability (likelihood) comes into the equation. Speculation is implying an outcome that may have no evidence whatsoever and is just a random guess.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And yet but for Sam's clumsiness and protectiveness towards Frodo Gollum might have repented.

Letters #96

Originally posted by Moonraker
Repented for how long? Surely the realisation that Frodo was on a quest to destroy the Ring would have stirred up the evil in Gollum again?

Gandalf would not have agreed. He held out hope that Gollum might repent.

'But that, [Gollum getting pleasant memories of the past when talking to Bilbo] of course, would only make the evil part of him angrier in the end-
unless it could be conquered. Unless it could be cured.' Gandalf sighed. 'Alas! there is little hope of that for him. Yet not no hope. No, not though he possessed the Ring so long, almost as far back as he can remember......
The murder of Deagol haunted Gollum, and he had made up a defence, repeating it to his "Precious" over and over again, as he gnawed bones in the dark, until he almost believed it.'

[Moonraker]

I suppose if the Valar had the ability to see the doings of Gollum from afar a bit like how Saruman used the Palantir to look deeper into Middle Earth, then they may not have cared to see Gollum in Valinor. I have no knowledge of what dimensions of power the Valar possessed beyond being more powerful than the Maia. Galadriel used her Mirror for this purpose, she may have had more knowledge of Gollum than she would care to admit. Which also brings me to ask why Gandalf didn't ask to use the Mirror more often? Was it just not as reliable as a Palantir? If it was of no use, then why did Galadriel ask Frodo to look into it?

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

If it was of no use, then why did Galadriel ask Frodo to look into it?

I very much doubt the Mirror was of no use, but she never really asks Frodo to look in it.

‘Do you advise me to look?’ asked Frodo.
‘No,’ she said. ‘I do not counsel you one way or the other. I am not a counsellor. You may learn something, and whether what you see be fair or evil, that may be profitable, and yet it may not. Seeing is both good and perilous. Yet I think, Frodo, that you have courage and wisdom enough for the venture, or I would not have brought you here. Do as you will!’

Why does she invite him to use it then? That's a good question. At a guess, I'd say she was trying to learn more about what kind of person the Ringbearer really was.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

Why does she invite him to use it then? That's a good question. At a guess, I'd say she was trying to learn more about what kind of person the Ringbearer really was.

This is rather off-topic, but the Mirror could indeed have been a literal mirror, in the sense that its visions might have reflected hopes, fears, and inner conflicts of the viewer. Curiously, Boromir never got a crack at it, but then Galadriel already suspected what she might see in him.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

I very much doubt the Mirror was of no use, but she never really asks Frodo to look in it.

‘Do you advise me to look?’ asked Frodo.
‘No,’ she said. ‘I do not counsel you one way or the other. I am not a counsellor. You may learn something, and whether what you see be fair or evil, that may be profitable, and yet it may not. Seeing is both good and perilous. Yet I think, Frodo, that you have courage and wisdom enough for the venture, or I would not have brought you here. Do as you will!’

Why does she invite him to use it then? That's a good question. At a guess, I'd say she was trying to learn more about what kind of person the Ringbearer really was.

The Moonraker seeks to push the realms of possibilities to the limits to reach new heights of truth, but not fact. But the Mirror could have been used to track Gollum years before he was actually caught. Could it have been also commandeered at Rivdenell during the Council of Elrond? Or did Galadriel have sole power in turning it on and off? Again it might have helped track Gollum's progress, and it could have aided Gandalf in seeing where Frodo and Sam had got to. I doubt it could reveal Gollum's ultimate fate, however, be it death, recovery, or insanity.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Probability is not the same as speculation. Hitler died, probably by suicide, but I do not recall that as being presented as speculation by most historians. When the evidence for a case is compelling but not absolute, probability (likelihood) comes into the equation. Speculation is implying an outcome that may have no evidence whatsoever and is just a random guess.

And did you completely ignore Inziladun's Tolkien quote above?

/thread

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

And did you completely ignore Inziladun's Tolkien quote above?

/thread

That is a matter for Inziladun to challenge. But in this very special instance I will answer, as every poster now and again has a bad day at the office and asks odd questions ---------------------------------> No.

[Moonraker]

Is there any chance at all that Gollum could truly heal once the Ring was destroyed? Bilbo recovered well once he let go of the Ring. Frodo likewise.