What if Gollum had lived?

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

This isn't anything related to my reply to Inziladun, however. What Gandalf would have done with him is a separate question, entirely, and doesn't change the fact that Smeagol was a rodentile muck-snipe who killed his own kin the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring.

Gandalf thought the evolution of Gollum was a sad story, one that he thought could have happened to good law abiding hobbits, so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Gandalf thought the evolution of Gollum was a sad story, one that he thought could have happened to good law abiding hobbits, so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

Pity does not preclude holding one responsible for wrongdoing. Gandalf makes it clear to Frodo that because Bilbo's first act as Ring-bearer was to show mercy to Gollum, he escaped the Ring's corruption, and was even able to willfully give it up.

Gollum, on the other hand, began his possession of the Ring with murder, and then used it to spy on his relatives and learn their secrets.

Gandalf also felt sadness for the fall of Saruman, but we don't see him offering the latter a seat on the boat.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Gandalf also felt sadness for the fall of Saruman, but we don't see him offering the latter a seat on the boat.

Did Galadriel not offer the old fool forgiveness, which Saruman refused out of hand? In this context I always thought he would have been allowed on the ship to the Undying Lands, where he would then be summoned to a trial by the Valar, or other powers that be over the sea. But the Valar had banished Saruman from Valinor when his staff was broken by Gandalf, and I am not sure if Galadriel or Gandalf had enough authority to overturn the punishment to get him back to Valinor.

It is these folk that would also put Gollum on trial.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Gandalf thought the evolution of Gollum was a sad story, one that he thought could have happened to good law abiding hobbits, so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

Pure speculation about the thoughts of a fictional character. In any event, being a dirtbag doesn't prevent one from being in a sad story.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Pure speculation about the thoughts of a fictional character. In any event, being a dirtbag doesn't prevent one from being in a sad story.

Nope, not speculation. If Gandalf thought Gollum as evil regardless of what influence the Ring had on him, he would not have offered pity, he would have ordered jail at the very least, or death. Instead, he thought Gollum had a small chance of being cured from the evil of the Ring, and had him treated well by the Wood Elves. Tolkein even suggests that the archers of Gondor killing him in the dark would also be against Gandalf's wishes. The creature was not wholly evil or wicked in origin, and deserved a second chance, to his mind at least.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Nope, not speculation. If Gandalf thought Gollum as evil regardless of what influence the Ring had on him, he would not have offered pity, he would have ordered jail at the very least, or death. Instead, he thought Gollum had a small chance of being cured from the evil of the Ring, and had him treated well by the Wood Elves. Tolkein even suggests that the archers of Gondor killing him in the dark would also be against Gandalf's wishes. The creature was not wholly evil or wicked in origin, and deserved a second chance, to his mind at least.

It is speculation. You said:

so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

which is a guess about what someone (a fictional character, to boot) may or may not think when presented with a (another fictional) hypothetical.

Also, since I never said anything about executing Gollum, I'm not sure what your first quote in my reply here has to do with what we were talking about, or the price of tea in China.

[Inziladun]

Moonraker, this is a quote from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien that illustrates what I've been trying to say:

Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him....The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his path.

# 181

Again, Gollum was deserving of pity, but had he lived he would only have earned freedom to go and live (or die) as he pleased. Frodo might have offered to care for him, but I think it certain any offer of help would have been refused.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

It is speculation. You said:



which is a guess about what someone (a fictional character, to boot) may or may not think when presented with a (another fictional) hypothetical.

Also, since I never said anything about executing Gollum, I'm not sure what your first quote in my reply here has to do with what we were talking about, or the price of tea in China.

Probability is not the same as speculation. Hitler died, probably by suicide, but I do not recall that as being presented as speculation by most historians. When the evidence for a case is compelling but not absolute, probability (likelihood) comes into the equation. Speculation is implying an outcome that may have no evidence whatsoever and is just a random guess.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And yet but for Sam's clumsiness and protectiveness towards Frodo Gollum might have repented.

Letters #96

Originally posted by Moonraker
Repented for how long? Surely the realisation that Frodo was on a quest to destroy the Ring would have stirred up the evil in Gollum again?

Gandalf would not have agreed. He held out hope that Gollum might repent.

'But that, [Gollum getting pleasant memories of the past when talking to Bilbo] of course, would only make the evil part of him angrier in the end-
unless it could be conquered. Unless it could be cured.' Gandalf sighed. 'Alas! there is little hope of that for him. Yet not no hope. No, not though he possessed the Ring so long, almost as far back as he can remember......
The murder of Deagol haunted Gollum, and he had made up a defence, repeating it to his "Precious" over and over again, as he gnawed bones in the dark, until he almost believed it.'

[Moonraker]

I suppose if the Valar had the ability to see the doings of Gollum from afar a bit like how Saruman used the Palantir to look deeper into Middle Earth, then they may not have cared to see Gollum in Valinor. I have no knowledge of what dimensions of power the Valar possessed beyond being more powerful than the Maia. Galadriel used her Mirror for this purpose, she may have had more knowledge of Gollum than she would care to admit. Which also brings me to ask why Gandalf didn't ask to use the Mirror more often? Was it just not as reliable as a Palantir? If it was of no use, then why did Galadriel ask Frodo to look into it?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Probability is not the same as speculation. Hitler died, probably by suicide, but I do not recall that as being presented as speculation by most historians. When the evidence for a case is compelling but not absolute, probability (likelihood) comes into the equation. Speculation is implying an outcome that may have no evidence whatsoever and is just a random guess.

And did you completely ignore Inziladun's Tolkien quote above?

/thread

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

And did you completely ignore Inziladun's Tolkien quote above?

/thread

That is a matter for Inziladun to challenge. But in this very special instance I will answer, as every poster now and again has a bad day at the office and asks odd questions ---------------------------------> No.