Are Elves vegatarian?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Ah, you see, when Morthoron said (in full) "Vegetables are what Elves eat when they can't get hobbit for dinner" what Morth meant was that Elves eat vegetables when they don't have hobbits around as dinner guests.

"Just bring out the cold chicken and pickles" indeed.

Obviously, you have never heard of "finger food".

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Obviously, you have never heard of "finger food".

"Finger Food"? I have heard of it.
Did the Elves know Hobbits well enough to invite them on dinners?
Another question that has never been answered to me. What about wine? Wine contains alcohol. Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Another question that has never been answered to me. What about wine? Wine contains alcohol. Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?

Alcoholic drinks definitely were known and imbibed in Middle-earth. In The Hobbit, the butler and chief guard of the Wood-elves had enough wine to make them pass out, allowing Bilbo and the Dwarves to escape.
In FOTR, it was noted that in the aftermath of Bilbo's party, wheelbarrows had to be used to remove guests that had "inadvertently remained behind", and when Frodo jumped onto the table at the Prancing Pony in Bree, it was surmised that he was drunk. In The Two Towers Faramir gave wine to Frodo and Sam, and drank it in Minas Tirith himself.

Why would it take a laboratory to produce ethyl alcohol? Drinks containing it have been made by various processes for thousands of years in our world. There are still peoples that utilize traditional methods even today. Why should it be any different in Tolkien's world?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

"Finger Food"? I have heard of it.
Did the Elves know Hobbits well enough to invite them on dinners?
Another question that has never been answered to me. What about wine? Wine contains alcohol. Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?

You can make it in labs. Or you can make it in your own home. People have made ale and wine fore millennia before laboratories. My parents had a wine making phase when I was young and we had demijohns glugging away. You ferment grape juice with yeast and the sugar turns into alcohol. The alcohol meant it was safer to drink ale or wine than most water, though they used to drink a weak beer called small ale in olden days which meant at least some work got done. Butterbur brewed his own ale, making the Pony what is called a microbrewery.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

"Finger Food"? I have heard of it.
Did the Elves know Hobbits well enough to invite them on dinners?
Another question that has never been answered to me. What about wine? Wine contains alcohol. Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?

Beer and wine have been around for thousands of years. Well before labs were ever invented. In fact, beer and wine are two of the three fundamentals of civilization; those, and prostitution.

[Smaug's voice]

There is significant evidence in the sil to suggest that elves regularly hunted and ate meat.
The only specification I think was for green elves who were veggies.
Or is my memory faulty?

[Aganzir]

To everyone who says elves didn't hunt for sport:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, The War of the Jewels, Quendi and Eldar, Appendix B. Elvish Names for the Dwarves.

The Eldar did not at first recognize [the Petty Dwarves] as Incarnates, for they seldom caught sight of them in clear light. (…) The Eldar therefore thought that they were a kind of cunning two-legged animals living in caves (…) and they hunted them. But after the Eldar had made the aquaintance of the Naugrim, [they] were recognized as a variety of Dwarves and were left alone. There were then few of them surviving.

I give you two options - either the elves did hunt for fun, or they ate dwarves.

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

And, Yes, I asked this question because in The Hobbit 1, Dwarves are NOT served meat.

Considering how rude the elves were in PJ's Hobbit, I wouldn't be surprised at all if serving 'lesser' food was just one more way to slight the dwarves. Now, being a (very flexible) vegetarian myself, I'm not calling veggie food lesser per se, but you have to admit that lettuce doesn't constitute much of a meal.

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?

My little brother brews the most amazing beer in his dorm's basement, which is hardly a lab.

[Nerwen]

Lotrelf, suggest you look up the various techniques of wine-making, beer-brewing etc.

Alcohol is certainly *not* a modern invention- to be honest, I'm really quite amazed that you could think so.

[Mithalwen]

May be from a "dry" culture... unlike yours and mine Nerwen dear

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Lotrelf, suggest you look up the various techniques of wine-making, beer-brewing etc.

Alcohol is certainly *not* a modern invention- to be honest, I'm really quite amazed that you could think so.

Actually, yes. But there's no one here who drinks-- not someone I know personally; and I never paid attention in my Chemistry class where these techniques were explained- may they had something told about that too. Well, I'm not interested in it, so I'll leave it to it.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I give you two options - either the elves did hunt for fun, or they ate dwarves....

A little known fact about the elves is that "short order" cooks were in high demand. One of their specialties were Fili Mignon.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

One of their specialties were Fili Mignon.

Not to mention Chicken Balinese.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

To everyone who says elves didn't hunt for sport:

I give you two options - either the elves did hunt for fun, or they ate dwarves.

They ate dwarves? I think that's Sauron's job to do- something that I already mentioned.

Considering how rude the elves were in PJ's Hobbit, I wouldn't be surprised at all if serving 'lesser' food was just one more way to slight the dwarves. Now, being a (very flexible) vegetarian myself, I'm not calling veggie food lesser per se, but you have to admit that lettuce doesn't constitute much of a meal.

More than the Elves I found dwarves were rude and mannerless. This is why I was too suprised to see them in the book. Though I didn't like their initial behaviour with Bilbo.

My little brother brews the most amazing beer in his dorm's basement, which is hardly a lab.

Cool! 8-)
That's all I can say.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

More than the Elves I found dwarves were rude and mannerless. This is why I was too suprised to see them in the book. Though I didn't like their initial behaviour with Bilbo.

Yeah that's one of my massive problems with Peter Jackson; no nuances. If there's a general vague enmity between elves and dwarves, it has to be demonstrated every single chance they get. He and his team are building up black-and-whiteness where there's supposed to be shades of grey.

In the films, the dwarves were rude and mannerless, and the elves haughty and disdainful. Hence I wouldn't be surprised if serving a subpar dinner to the dwarves, accompanied with music and all, was an act of slight with finesse, whether it be in revenge for their poor manners or as a general "eww dwarves" notion. What saddens me most is that neither of the races is supposed to be like that.

[Tar-Jêx]

To put this question in different context; Are Germans sober?

A great deal many are, but there are also a great deal who stay in pubs and bars all day.
It's similar to asking whether humans are vegetarians. The response you get will be different depending on who you ask.

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Tar-Jêx

To put this question in different context; Are Germans sober?

A great deal many are, but there are also a great deal who stay in pubs and bars all day.
It's similar to asking whether humans are vegetarians. The response you get will be different depending on who you ask.

I don't think that this analogy is very helpful. Elves are a literary concept and thus constructed in a certain way. This is especially important when it comes to a writer like Tolkien who seldom tried to write certain societies as diverse as a real society would be. On the contrary, the societies, people and persons in middle-earth are described in a mythological manner and can share the same properties. I guess one should not try to examine or explain middle-earth like it was real. Nonetheless I don't see vegetarianism as a commonly shared ideology among elves either. I guess it's a more recent fantasy trope (maybe even dating back to those LOTR readers/fans in the 60's; darn hippies!) that elves have to be
in total sync with nature, in every way.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Leaf

I don't think that this analogy is very helpful. Elves are a literary concept and thus constructed in a certain way. This is especially important when it comes to a writer like Tolkien who seldom tried to write certain societies as diverse as a real society would be. On the contrary, the societies, people and persons in middle-earth are described in a mythological manner and can share the same properties. I guess one should not try to examine or explain middle-earth like it was real. Nonetheless I don't see vegetarianism as a commonly shared ideology among elves either. I guess it's a more recent fantasy trope (maybe even dating back to those LOTR readers/fans in the 60's; darn hippies!) that elves have to be
in total sync with nature, in every way.

While the question is different, the nature of the answer is the same. It would depend entirely on the tribe of elves. I could see that higher class elves like Elrond would refrain from eating meats, but travelling elves would eat it just as much as a human would.

Questions which have cultural variables don't have one set answer.

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Tar-Jêx

While the question is different, the nature of the answer is the same. It would depend entirely on the tribe of elves. I could see that higher class elves like Elrond would refrain from eating meats, but travelling elves would eat it just as much as a human would.

Questions which have cultural variables don't have one set answer.

Well, when it comes to Tolkien's writings many question with cultural variables have exactly one set answers. For instance: The dwarven societies are structured and characterized in the same way. They are outstanding craftsman and merchants. They stick with themselves and are secretive about their own cultur. I'm trying to explain that it wouldn't be out of line or surprising if all of Tolkien's elves shared the same attitude when it comes to eating meat. If you answer this question by simply refering to the diversity of people in the real world you're ignoring this. To give a proper and satisfactory answer we would have to examine the texts instead of projecting a realistic or logical view on the matter.

Your very examples show that this is a problem. The only elven tribe we could more or less) reasonably suspect to be all vegetarian are the Laiquendi, the evles of Ossiriand. The text hints that they have a problem with killing animals and yet they live scattered and withdram in the woods. Beren wandered and lived in the woods of Doriath for a very long time but he vowed not to eat animals. This doesn't make sense from a realistic point of view but from a literary or poetic one. The Noldor and Sindar, on the other hand, are civilised, wiser and by all means a higher class of elves and we do find great and prominent huntsman among them.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Leaf

Well, when it comes to Tolkien's writings many question with cultural variables have exactly one set answers. For instance: The dwarven societies are structured and characterized in the same way. They are outstanding craftsman and merchants. They stick with themselves and are secretive about their own cultur. I'm trying to explain that it wouldn't be out of line or surprising if all of Tolkien's elves shared the same attitude when it comes to eating meat. If you answer this question by simply refering to the diversity of people in the real world you're ignoring this. To give a proper and satisfactory answer we would have to examine the texts instead of projecting a realistic or logical view on the matter.

Your very examples show that this is a problem. The only elven tribe we could more or less) reasonably suspect to be all vegetarian are the Laiquendi, the evles of Ossiriand. The text hints that they have a problem with killing animals and yet they live scattered and withdram in the woods. Beren wandered and lived in the woods of Doriath for a very long time but he vowed not to eat animals. This doesn't make sense from a realistic point of view but from a literary or poetic one. The Noldor and Sindar, on the other hand, are civilised, wiser and by all means a higher class of elves and we do find great and prominent huntsman among them.

While your point on dwarves stands, Tolkien had few references to vegetarianism among the elves. Dwarves were stereotypically greedy craftsmen, and this stands for most of them in Middle Earth. Elves were never really given vegetarianism as a defining trait like the dwarves were to craftsmanship.

The defining elven trait would be musicianship, as there is reference to it in a lot of older media.