Are Elves vegatarian? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Alfirin · 05-15-2014, 04:10 PM

The way I try and reconcile the line and the sausage is by assuming that the elves of Rivendell are not WHOLLY vegetarian, but they have a diet more along the lines of a Mediterrenean/southern Peasant line, where meat is often a flavoring/accent in a dish, not the main feature. And that this might be in contrast to the normal dwarven diet, which is much more along the "meat and potatoes/starch" line (since the dwarves tend to trade for a lot of thier food, they may be used to mostly eating things that keep and travel well. Merry does apologize to Gimli for their being no "green stuff" in the quote Tuor found, but it is unclear if he is aplogizing for something that he actually thinks Gimli would want to eat, or he is making a slightly humorous comment based on the difference between what would be normal fare for a dwarf and hobbit diets (which probably DO have a fair amount of vegetables, given that gardening is a viable profession and the love the hobbits have for gardens.)
Speaking of alternate foods (now that we are occasionally expanding into other things elves may or may not eat. Doe you think, if elves are not big meat eaters, they eat a lot of dairy, or is their diet more along the lines of veganisim? I'm sort of two minds here. On one hand, since dairy tends to require a fair amount of pastureland (for whatever animals you are milking to graze on) a part of me want to think not, at least not for Lothlorien )which seems to be mostly surrounded by trees and Mirkwood which is more or less the same (Rivindell's valley may be bigger so they may have room for pastureland.) On the other hand, something in me keeps thinking they do (it may be that when I feast heard lembas called waybread, I though they meant wheybread i.e. bread made with milk whey instead of water.) There is also the question of if the elves really are vegan I'm not sure how much veggie protein is around. ME seems to have such New World crops as potatoes and tobacco (and tomatoes too, in one of the early drafts of the hobbit) so they might have common beans. But if they don't your veggie protein choices seem a little limited (you'd have lentils, starchy peas (like the Carlin pea) Broad (fava) beans, chickpeas (probably only in southern places like Gondor and the Harads and so not in third age elf zones really) grasspea (maybe) edible lupines (again, a big maybe) and after that I (who am a botanist) run dry of guesses.

mhagain · 05-15-2014, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfirin

when I feast heard lembas called waybread, I though they meant wheybread i.e. bread made with milk whey instead of water

Even without the misreading they still need fields (or at least "guarded lands and sunlit glades") for growing wheat (which Letter 210 states to be the primary ingredient; I know JRRT said "corn" in the Lembas essay, but in the UK "corn" is just a generic term for any cereal; "maize" is the New World cereal). It's certainly the case that JRRT didn't write much about Middle-earth agriculture, but that doesn't mean that it didn't exist.

Alfirin · 05-15-2014, 05:27 PM

I agree that they'd need land to grow the grain. Given that the recipie was supposedly given to them by Yavanna herself, it's tempting to think that wild wheat could be used for maximum connection to nature (and since lembas is unleavened, gluten contents don't really apply here.) But the problem is the same as the one with the chickpeas; assuming most wild plants are roughly where they are latitude wise in our world (someone once correct my question about finding bay laurels in Ithillien by pointing out that, latitude wise, Ithillien would be roughly where Tuscany is in our world) The third age elves are mostly too far north to have it. Wild einkorn and emmer (which are basically the wild ancestors of wheat, give or take some goat grass genes) are really only found in places like Turkey and Macedonia, which I keep thinking would actually put them somewhere in Mordor in ME.

mhagain · 05-15-2014, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I agree that they'd need land to grow the grain. Given that the recipie was supposedly given to them by Yavanna herself, it's tempting to think that wild wheat could be used for maximum connection to nature (and since lembas is unleavened, gluten contents don't really apply here.) But the problem is the same as the one with the chickpeas; assuming most wild plants are roughly where they are latitude wise in our world (someone once correct my question about finding bay laurels in Ithillien by pointing out that, latitude wise, Ithillien would be roughly where Tuscany is in our world) The third age elves are mostly too far north to have it. Wild einkorn and emmer (which are basically the wild ancestors of wheat, give or take some goat grass genes) are really only found in places like Turkey and Macedonia, which I keep thinking would actually put them somewhere in Mordor in ME.

Yeah, Turkey = Mordor seems about right; much of Mordor is a bit more northerly though, going by Letter 294 which places the mouths of Anduin and Pelargir at the latitude of Troy. Maybe Bulgaria?

Of the Darkening of Valinor has a note referring to "the fields and pastures of Yavanna, gold beneath the tall wheat of the gods" (I think this is the sole reference to "gods" in the published Silmarillion and I wonder how and why CT missed it) but we don't have any comparative latitude.

Alfirin · 05-15-2014, 06:45 PM

Actually that would make sense. That would mean that Turkey would me more or less over Nurn, which would allow wheat to grow there (it's Mordor'as breadbasket, after all)

And just to be a bit silly, A funny thought ocurred to me. I wonder if all of the peoples of middle earth selected thier grain strains to fit thier own views of beauty. The children of Durin presumably preferred trading for grains with long beards, while others would seek ones with short stiff ones, and of course, Gondorians would demand thier wheat and barley be beardless*. The men of Numernor would want Poulard wheat; tall and great grains for tall and great men. Hobbits on the other hand would probably most favor in club wheat; small and compact. Sauron's fields would presumably be filled with black wheats. Giant whippy Tibetan barleys for the men of Rohan, to ride thier horses through majesticly (and they are good for beer brewing). And of course Saruman, with his love of all things mechanical, must favor rivet wheat.

*The awns (those long hairy things) on the top of an ear of wheat are collectively called the beard. Some wheats/barleys have long beards, some have short beards and some have no beards.

05-15-2014, 06:45 PM	#5
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	Actually that would make sense. That would mean that Turkey would me more or less over Nurn, which would allow wheat to grow there (it's Mordor'as breadbasket, after all) And just to be a bit silly, A funny thought ocurred to me. I wonder if all of the peoples of middle earth selected thier grain strains to fit thier own views of beauty. The children of Durin presumably preferred trading for grains with long beards, while others would seek ones with short stiff ones, and of course, Gondorians would demand thier wheat and barley be beardless. The men of Numernor would want Poulard wheat; tall and great grains for tall and great men. Hobbits on the other hand would probably most favor in club wheat; small and compact. Sauron's fields would presumably be filled with black wheats. Giant whippy Tibetan barleys for the men of Rohan, to ride thier horses through majesticly (and they are good for beer brewing). And of course Saruman, with his love of all things mechanical, must favor rivet wheat. The awns (those long hairy things) on the top of an ear of wheat are collectively called the beard. Some wheats/barleys have long beards, some have short beards and some have no beards. Last edited by Alfirin; 05-15-2014 at 06:49 PM.

05-15-2014, 04:10 PM	#1
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	The way I try and reconcile the line and the sausage is by assuming that the elves of Rivendell are not WHOLLY vegetarian, but they have a diet more along the lines of a Mediterrenean/southern Peasant line, where meat is often a flavoring/accent in a dish, not the main feature. And that this might be in contrast to the normal dwarven diet, which is much more along the "meat and potatoes/starch" line (since the dwarves tend to trade for a lot of thier food, they may be used to mostly eating things that keep and travel well. Merry does apologize to Gimli for their being no "green stuff" in the quote Tuor found, but it is unclear if he is aplogizing for something that he actually thinks Gimli would want to eat, or he is making a slightly humorous comment based on the difference between what would be normal fare for a dwarf and hobbit diets (which probably DO have a fair amount of vegetables, given that gardening is a viable profession and the love the hobbits have for gardens.) Speaking of alternate foods (now that we are occasionally expanding into other things elves may or may not eat. Doe you think, if elves are not big meat eaters, they eat a lot of dairy, or is their diet more along the lines of veganisim? I'm sort of two minds here. On one hand, since dairy tends to require a fair amount of pastureland (for whatever animals you are milking to graze on) a part of me want to think not, at least not for Lothlorien )which seems to be mostly surrounded by trees and Mirkwood which is more or less the same (Rivindell's valley may be bigger so they may have room for pastureland.) On the other hand, something in me keeps thinking they do (it may be that when I feast heard lembas called waybread, I though they meant wheybread i.e. bread made with milk whey instead of water.) There is also the question of if the elves really are vegan I'm not sure how much veggie protein is around. ME seems to have such New World crops as potatoes and tobacco (and tomatoes too, in one of the early drafts of the hobbit) so they might have common beans. But if they don't your veggie protein choices seem a little limited (you'd have lentils, starchy peas (like the Carlin pea) Broad (fava) beans, chickpeas (probably only in southern places like Gondor and the Harads and so not in third age elf zones really) grasspea (maybe) edible lupines (again, a big maybe) and after that I (who am a botanist) run dry of guesses.

05-15-2014, 05:27 PM	#3
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	I agree that they'd need land to grow the grain. Given that the recipie was supposedly given to them by Yavanna herself, it's tempting to think that wild wheat could be used for maximum connection to nature (and since lembas is unleavened, gluten contents don't really apply here.) But the problem is the same as the one with the chickpeas; assuming most wild plants are roughly where they are latitude wise in our world (someone once correct my question about finding bay laurels in Ithillien by pointing out that, latitude wise, Ithillien would be roughly where Tuscany is in our world) The third age elves are mostly too far north to have it. Wild einkorn and emmer (which are basically the wild ancestors of wheat, give or take some goat grass genes) are really only found in places like Turkey and Macedonia, which I keep thinking would actually put them somewhere in Mordor in ME.