Arnor- Designed For Failure?

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

So, Elendil places the Master Stone in the Southern Kingdom, not the Northern Kingdom, with Anarion overseeing that, although Elendil, we're told, assumed reign from the principal kingdom 'of the North'.

From Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, "Three Elendil took, and his sons two each. Those of Elendil were set in towers upon Emyn Beraid, and upon Amon Sûl, and in the city of Annúminas. But those of his sons were at Minas Ithil and Minas Anor, and at Orthanc and in Osgiliath." [p. 362] One thing of note is that the towers of Emyn Beraid "were raised by Gil-galad for Elendil". So there are parts of Arnor that were not built by the Númenóreans at all.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

This seems to me a problem. How does the primary overseeing realm get reconnaissance from the Amon Sul stone, where that can be considered wholly reliable, where the possibility exists that the Southern Master Stone can shut out communications to Amon Sul?

It's more like if two stones are in communion, say the Orthanc and the Ithil-stone, any other Stone would see them as blank. The one at Osgiliath of course did not have this limitation. So it can't shut out communications, rather it can eavesdrop on two other stones in communication. Gandalf himself tells Pippen, "at Osgiliath they could survey them all together at one time." [TTT, Bk. 3, ch. 11, p. 240] It is also said how Denethor and Saruman could have had communion between themselves without Sauron being able to see what they were communicating. Between them they were working the Arnor, Orthanc, and Ithil Stones, none of which can do what the Osgiliath-stone could. If Sauron possessed that, he'd be able to see what Saruman and Denethor were communicating about.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

There is, at best, a reliance upon trust to ensure fidelity to sovereignty matters, and at worst, the potential for insurrection, covert, Machiavellian events and deception.

At first, at least, they were in the possession of Elendil's sons. Did a High King up North figure that maybe he should move the Osgiliath-stone up North so that they alone could look into the conversations between other Stones? I do not know.

The Stones could be a drain mentally and usually the Kings had people below them make use of the other Stones to scan the realm so they could be on top of any potential enemies and to communicate. In fact, remember the episode between Arvedui and the Council in Gondor when he claimed the High Kingship? This was more likely than not done with the Stones. In Note #1 of The Palantíri:

"Doubtless they were used in consultations between Arnor and Gondor in the year 1944 concerning the succession to the Crown."

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Unless, that is, the Amon Sul Stone had other properties we have not been told about.

Except for it being like the Osgiliath-stone, minus the eavesdropping capability, it would be more powerful than the other Stones.

[tom the eldest]

I think it has to do with arnor smaller population.arnor was suffering heavy losses at the war of the last alliance.they were already dwindling when angmar atrack,from migration to the south,harsh winter,and civil war.so,the sucessor state were greatly weakened when angmar attack,although they maybe coud still muster 20.000-30.000,because at the siege of fornost,arthedain had 10.000,remnant of arnor's troops.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It is hard to understand how Numenorean fortifications of Elendil's primary realm should be more vulnerable than the Gondor fortifications.

Because one kingdom was next-door to Mordor and the other wasn't?

Gondor seems at all times to have been more populous. When Elendil's boys washed ashore there was already a substantial Numenorean town at Pelargir, a population of Numenoreans in Belfalas/Dor-en-Ernil, and fairly considerable non-Dunedain populations in the mountains and coasts.

Arnor wasn't I think as empty as it would become, but still one doesn't get the impression of numbers. Elendil, one is tempted to think, viewed the place strategically, as a bridge-realm linking Lindon in the west with Rivendell in the east.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Elendil, one is tempted to think, viewed the place strategically, as a bridge-realm linking Lindon in the west with Rivendell in the east.

And, perhaps also, he saw it as a place to rest from strife - far from the reminder of evil in Mordor. Leave that to his sons who were young (relatively) and energetic - let him enjoy the peace he had earned (in his view, maybe) in his old age.

And, of course, his very name means "Elf-Friend", so it would be natural for him to reside closer to the largest kingdom of his friends (Gil-galad's realm in Lindon).

That Sauron was still around was something he only learned later (it was over 100 years before Sauron revealed himself and attacked).

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

And, perhaps also, he saw it as a place to rest from strife - far from the reminder of evil in Mordor. Leave that to his sons who were young (relatively) and energetic - let him enjoy the peace he had earned (in his view, maybe) in his old age.

Though 200 when he founded Arnor, Elendil was not old at this point in his life. He was part of the Faithful and they lived much longer than the King's Men. Ar-Pharazôn died when he was 201 and was already "besotted, and walking under the shadow of death". [Akallabêth, p. 340] His father Gimilkhâd died when he was 198! So I'd say if Elendil were one of those who were in rebellion against the Valar then Elendil would be accounted old. However, Elendil was much longer lived and died when he was 322 fighting Sauron. His g.grandon (x8) Siriondil [King of Gondor] was 260 when he died in M-E, & Amlaith [King of Arthedain] was 220.

I do think Elendil probably made Arnor his home in part because of the realms of the High-king of the Noldor in Lindon, & Rivendell. However, he was driven in that direction by the destruction of Númenor, not that this is where he was planning on going in the first place. Just as his sons were driven to the south by the waves. There were apparently many sailors looking for the Meneltarma, and the fear of death was still on them, and they ever longed for the West. Also I believe at this point in time since they did not know that Sauron survived there was probably no thought to building fortifications to prepare for him. Now surely they have powerful enemies because when Sauron did return and build up his forces it is said, "among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor." [Of the Rings of Power and the Thrid Age, p. 363] This is because there were Dúnedain who settled in the East who gladly turned to Sauron. Where Isildur and Anárion came was basically a spot where the Faithful made their homes.

It is said that two of these Dúnedain, "Herumor and Fuinur... rose to power among the Haradrim" [p. 363] since before they moved to the South due to the threat of Gil-galad.

[tom the eldest]

Ar-pharazon wasnt dead,he was buried with those who set foot on aman in the cave of the forgotten

[Belegorn]

Dead or held in suspended animation, my point was that Ar-Pharazôn was already at death's door at this point in his life whereas the Faithful were much longer lived. I do agree with you that he was probably not dead, thanks for the correction.

[Snowdog]

Not sure where I was in May 2014 ... wait, I was taking a zig-zagging RV drive across the USA from Chicago to Seattle. Wasn't around much that year.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Arnor - Designed For Failure?

I don't think it was designed for failure; I think it was a series of events through the years that ultimately led to its failure. I'm not sure I agree that Arnor was of greater importance than Gondor either. One factor would be the fact it was a mere 111 years from the time of the downfall of Númenor to the assault by Sauron on Minas Ithil, starting the War of the Last Alliance. The population depletion of Arnor and Gondor, with losses of men being equal, would drain Arnor more than it would Gondor, which had a larger population of Númenóreans with the extra ship. There are a lot of variables that could be accounted for, but it was clear to me it was not by design that Arnor fell and Gondor did not.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

... it is said, "among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor." [Of the Rings of Power and the Thrid Age, p. 363] This is because there were Dúnedain who settled in the East who gladly turned to Sauron.

The Númenóreans had sailed far and wide to the north, east, and south of Numenor and had established a fair number of settlements along all the shores they came to.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think also Gondor was more fertile, and had seaports, which would mean that not only did Gondor start off with more Dunedain and far more non-Dunedain, but the population differential would have continued to increase. Even in 3019 after a long period of decline, Gondor's provinces could muster some 30,000 fighting men*, which implies a population of at least 90,000.

*Based on the Out-companies totaling about 3000, and MT complaints that "they have spared only a tithe"