Elves and Ringwraiths

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

In that case, it's actually little weird Sauron was willing to have three Nazgul who were Numenorian, or four (depending on whether the earlier guess of the WK's heritage is accurate or not). One would think he would want a max of ONE Numenorian Nazgul; to spread his rings and influence in as wide a net as possible. Yes, by the time he doles out the last rings, Sauron is nominally a prisoner there. But it seems to me that at no point was Sauron so desperate that he gave our rings out of neccecity, especially since he seemed well capable of bestowing "special" gifts on loyal servants that did NOT require a ring (such as The Mouth, or those two rulers (Fram and someone else, I think) Sauron seemed to always have the luxury of biding his time, and picking and choosing which nine men would make his "best" private force.
A part of me likes the idea of at least one or two Haradrian Nazgul to cement those regions securely (one or two depending on whether Near and Far Harad are similar enough to allow one indiviual to be ultimately in charge of both, or whether each would need it's own supreme ruler. It is even tempting to think that, should there be such a pair in the Wraith Ranks, they were numbered amoung the five at Pellenor, as supreme commanders of thier respective nations.
Gothmog II was probably a Numenorian. Given corrupted Numernorian tendencies to revel in the past, it would well fit a turned one to select as his new name that of the Chief of the Balrogs as a sort of "I am Gothmog re-incranted, I am a supreme Badass." (This assumes 1. Some or all of the Nazgul chose new names for themselves when they turned (likely I think, since I doubt that a normal man in most of the societies (especially the Numenorian, could get away with calling himself "Gothmog" and not arouse a lot of suspicion). and 2. They chose those names themselves, rather than having them bestowed on them by Sauron (in a sort of Emperor Palpatine situation))
Gothmog probably ranks third in the Hierarchy, since coordinating authority over the whole Pellenor force was given to him. Though this sort of contradicts my theory that rank in the Nazgul was determined by sieniority (i.e. The WK was the first man Sauron gave a ring to, Khamul was the second, etc.) If there are only three Numenorians, they would be the LAST three wraiths, and therfore, by that theory, the lowest ranked.)
Beyond that, it's anyone's guess. Could one be a Wainrider? Could another be a former ruler of Nurn? (actually the last might make a lot of sense, to have a wraith as ultimate authority over the Mordorian breadbasket to keep the slaves in line might be sensible.)

There is no concrete evidence that the 3rd Age Gothmog at the Battle of Pelennor Field was a Nazgul. All we know is that he was a lieutenant to the WiKi in Minas Morgul, but that post did not necessarily require a Nazgul, as we know the lieutenant of Barad-dur was the Mouth of Sauron, who was a mortal without a Ring.

I believe Tolkien stated that at least three of the Nazgul were Numenorean (including the WiKi); in this case, it would be understandable if one of these great Numenorean Lords was a King of Umbar or in Harad, where the Black Numenoreans held sway for many years.

[Alfirin]

Yes, that is true, the Mouth became second in Command of Barad Dur while still being a man (though in his case, given he is so old he has forgotten his name, the term "mortal" may be stretching things a bit.)
Actually, ALL the Nazgul are probably Kings of some region, or whatever term is used locally for the ultimate leader. As his most trusted servants, Sauron would naturally want to put them in supreme charge of those areas under his Dominion. That's why I suggested one might rule Nurn; who else could he trust so much to make sure the supply of food for his troops continued safely.
Umbar does also seem a likey spot of rule for one, since, as you said, it is a Black Numenorian stronghold. My one problem with this is that, if one of the Nazgul IS the king of Umbar, where was he when Umbar was sacked. Granted, each ruling Nazgul must fairly regularly have to leave his realm in the hands of a trusted steward when they are off on other Sauronian business (if Gothmog is not a Nazgul, he probably is such and Individual in most cases the ruler of Minas Morgul in the Wiki's absence.) , but given that the Battle of Pellenor is a pretty major undertaking; you expect the Lord of Umbar to come with his fleet behind him (the same way the WiKi arrived at Pellenor with an army from Minas Morgul) At bare minimum you expect him to be popping back from time to time to check. Umbar is only a moderate distance (as compared to say Minas Morgul) from Gondor even by boat, by Fell Beast it's even less. Even if the Lord deicided it was more important to go on ahead to the battle and let his fleet follow him, he would have let whoever was left in charge know where he was in case messages needed to be sent. And messages WOULD be sent. No matter how abrupt the Dead Mens attack was and how through, one would assume some Umbarian would have been able to send a messager bird to his Commander (after Aragorn and Co. LEFT, if not before) if his Commander in Chief was already there ("Fleet destroyed. Enemy on way to you. Please advise.") And the Forces of Sauron should Know Aragorn is coming AGES before he gets there, and have a trap waiting for him. I'm not actually saying the Lord of Umbar CAN'T be one of the Nazgul, but if he is, he seems to be doing a lousy job of leading his people (and if he ISN'T one of the Five at Pellenor, then why not, seeing as how the likelyhood of his people being part of the fight is so high?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Yes, that is true, the Mouth became second in Command of Barad Dur while still being a man (though in his case, given he is so old he has forgotten his name, the term "mortal" may be stretching things a bit.)

"His name is remembered in no tale, for he himself had forgotten it."
I do not believe that the Mouth of Sauron was particularly ancient. We are only told that he had forgotten his own name, not that he had forgotten it due to age. In the same way I believe that Gothmog was a Man and not a Wraith. I associate him with the Morgul-riders who emerged from the Dead City with the Black Captain as witnessed by Frodo and Sam.

Khamûl was the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur. He seemingly no longer had any affiliation with the Easterlings by the end of the Third Age. In the same way I think we needn't find confusion in the idea of other Wraiths no longer leading their former realms to battle. The Lord of the Nazgûl was King of Angmar and Lord of Morgul in his time: he did not persist in a specifically Black Númenórean connection.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Actually, please have a look at some other citations. He was knows as the Black Easterling, Shadow in the East second in charge, occupant of Dol Guldur, Ringwraith in the Shire who spoke, the Ringwraith most able to sense the Ring, but most susceptible to sunlight.

I don't dispute that. I am entirely familiar with the material in Unfinished Tales which relates to Khamûl. I was simply giving a general warning about the reliability of information on the "Lord of the Rings Wiki."

[Inziladun]

This public computer for some reason will not allow me to quote, but I'm with Zigûr that the Mouth was not necessarily old, just that he had so submerged himself into Sauron's will that he had lost any sense of independant identity. It need not be assumed that Gothmog was in any similar state. He was probably just an Easterling, or maybe even an especially large, strong, and commanding Orc given that particular name in honor of Morgoth's fearsome field captain.

I also agree that the Nazgûl would have been unlikely to have kept any connection with the peoples of their origin. There would have been little need for it, given that Sauron already had a hold on those folk anyway.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

This public computer for some reason will not allow me to quote, but I'm with Zigûr that the Mouth was not necessarily old, just that he had so submerged himself into Sauron's will that he had lost any sense of independant identity. It need not be assumed that Gothmog was in any similar state. He was probably just an Easterling, or maybe even an especially large, strong, and commanding Orc given that particular name in honor of Morgoth's fearsome field captain.

I also agree that the Nazgûl would have been unlikely to have kept any connection with the peoples of their origin. There would have been little need for it, given that Sauron already had a hold on those folk anyway.

I think the advanced age theory of MoS is plausible, due to the odd way Tolkien refers to him: he is a Black Numenorean. How is that odd, you say? Considering that the Black Numenoreans as a race had disappeared quite a long time before the War of the Ring (Gondorions of Numenorean descent didn't refer to themselves as Numenoreans either). Could he have prolonged his life due to the necromantic arts Sauron himself taught him?

There really is no definitive answer, but the conjecture is ominously fun.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think the advanced age theory of MoS is plausible, due to the odd way Tolkien refers to him: he is a Black Numenorean. How is that odd, you say? Considering that the Black Numenoreans as a race had disappeared quite a long time before the War of the Ring (Gondorions of Numenorean descent didn't refer to themselves as Numenoreans either). Could he have prolonged his life due to the necromantic arts Sauron himself taught him?

The story narrative doesn't suggest any advanced age for the Mouth, and to be old by the reckoning of Men and not show it, wouldn't he need to possess something of the Númenórean longevity? I get the idea though that the King's Men/Black Númenóreans lost that advantage more quickly than those of the Faithful, in which case he wouldn't necessarily be that old.

As for using Sauron's sorcery to prolong his life, that could be possible, I guess. In order to acquire "sorcery" from Sauron he needed, I think, to lose enough of his own identity to basically become (like the Ringwraiths) a mere extension of Sauron's will, which could allow him to share in the life of his Master. I wonder if that's the case though, what happened to him after the Ring was destroyed and Sauron fell. Did he die on the spot, or just quietly pine away? What good is a Mouth without a brain behind it? Maybe Tauriel could tell us.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Inziladun:

As for using Sauron's sorcery to prolong his life, that could be possible, I guess. In order to acquire "sorcery" from Sauron he needed, I think, to lose enough of his own identity to basically become (like the Ringwraiths) a mere extension of Sauron's will, which could allow him to share in the life of his Master.

I've recently come to believe (with no textual proof whatsoever) that the Mouth of Sauron was given one of Rings that Sauron recovered from the dwarves. He simply hasn't had it long enough for it to have completely taken over his entire being. He's "part-way" to becoming a Nazgul. This would account for both a longer life, (long enough to have forgotten his own name.) and his ability to speak for Sauron autonomously. I can't prove it, though, obviously.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The story narrative doesn't suggest any advanced age for the Mouth, and to be old by the reckoning of Men and not show it, wouldn't he need to possess something of the Númenórean longevity? I get the idea though that the King's Men/Black Númenóreans lost that advantage more quickly than those of the Faithful, in which case he wouldn't necessarily be that old.

As for using Sauron's sorcery to prolong his life, that could be possible, I guess. In order to acquire "sorcery" from Sauron he needed, I think, to lose enough of his own identity to basically become (like the Ringwraiths) a mere extension of Sauron's will, which could allow him to share in the life of his Master. I wonder if that's the case though, what happened to him after the Ring was destroyed and Sauron fell. Did he die on the spot, or just quietly pine away? What good is a Mouth without a brain behind it? Maybe Tauriel could tell us.

Ah, but the mystery of the Mouth goes deeper, doesn't it? Tolkien, in yet another example of his classic ambiguity, writes that "he [MoS] entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again." Now, is Tolkien referring to when Sauron returned to the Tower after the destruction of Numenor nearly 3000 years previously, or when Sauron reinhabited Barad-dur after his feigned flight from Dol Guldur?

Even if we discount the former and consider the latter (Sauron's retreat from Dol Guldur), MoS went into the service of Sauron about 68 years prior to the events at the Black Gate. Now, I am not sure Sauron took in child prodigies, but even if we allow for the laxity of Mordorion child labor laws, MoS could not be much younger than 20 years old at the time, but most likely older, as Sauron seemed to gravitate to greater men, warriors, sorcerers and kings in their prime. So, MoS had to be at least in his late 80s or more likely 90s when he rode out from the Morannon to confront Aragorn and Gandalf.

He did not appear to be a dotard or wizened as a man of that old age would be; on the contrary, he was described as "A tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse… The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man." Tall and proud: a man in his prime. How can this be? If, as you mention, Inzil, that he was a product of Numenorean blood, how could he be a peer agewise to his adversary Aragorn, whose bloodline ran truer than any man of the time? Denethor, certainly a great man of Gondor whose bloodline was better than most, was unbent but still gray-bearded and mature-looking when he died at 89.

This brings me back to Tolkien referring to MoS as a "Black Numenorean". Again, I find this very intriguing. Tolkien did not say he "was of Black Numenorean descent" or that "his forefathers were Black Numenorean"; no, he says Mos "is" Black Numenorean, as if that were still a viable race. Given Gondor's utter victory against the Haradrim in T.A. 1050, and Tolkien's comment that "some were given over wholly to idleness and ease, and some fought amongst themselves, until they became conquered in their weakness by the wild men," that the Black Numenoreans as a race were diluted far more so than the Dunedain of Gondor. So, nearly 2000 years afterwards, there is still someone who can be identified as Black Numenorean? Isn't that strange? That's like someone in Italy claiming to be an Imperial Roman.

Anyway, ambiguity is the spice of Tolkien.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I don't dispute that. I am entirely familiar with the material in Unfinished Tales which relates to Khamûl. I was simply giving a general warning about the reliability of information on the "Lord of the Rings Wiki."

Nice touch with the 'Û'. I would have loved to have seen your ideas about Khamul. There was an interesting view about Tolkien's intention offered, possibly anonymising the Nazgul to add to their terror (for the reader), and so, querying whether or not Khamul, as a name, ever existed.

I'm still thinking about the implications for having a non-Numenorean ace the Numenorean Ringwraiths (except the Witchking) in power. And what this means about Elves and Ringwraiths in a relative ranking of power.

[Nerwen]

Ivriniel, the part I was querying is the claim that Khamul was at the Pellenor fields- not all the Ringwraiths were, as I recall, and I can't find any individual account of his later movements. Doesn't seem to be in UT, anyway.

I'm aware this is just a side issue, but I'd like to track down the source (if there is one).

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Nice touch with the 'Û'. I would have loved to have seen your ideas about Khamul. There was an interesting view about Tolkien's intention offered, possibly anonymising the Nazgul to add to their terror (for the reader), and so, querying whether or not Khamul, as a name, ever existed.

I don't understand what you mean by that last bit; of course it existed- you've read the relevant text yourself. Are you asking whether it can be considered "canonical"?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ivriniel, the part I was querying is the claim that Khamul was at the Pellenor fields- not all the Ringwraiths were, as I recall, and I can't find any individual account of his later movements. Doesn't seem to be in UT, anyway.

Hey there Nerwen

I'm not sure off hand how many of the nine were at the Pelennor, cause I'm rusty about LotR, having not read it for about five years (though another read's on the brew). The only stuff I can find about Khamul (I haven't scanned, widely yet) was in The Hunt for the Ring.

I don't understand what you mean by that last bit; of course it existed- you've read the relevant text yourself. Are you asking whether it can be considered "canonical"?

...someone posted somewhere, upstream, an interesting idea about why Tolkien may [not] have deliberately [not] provided names (sorry about the double negative, but they're needed at times) for the Nazgul, before they were Nazgul. The idea being petitioned was that the anonymising of the Nine made them more frightening to the reader (ie stops one getting all warm and fuzzy about The Witch King, before he was a Witch King, and so sad for his fate, coz he woz once-a nice guy who just got led all astray, coz all those Elendil supporters thought his inverted cross was mean i.e. by identifying with his human -- or once human -- side).

About canonical tomes, I'm sure there's some interesting views about 'which' materials to weight, when pressed, in topical items that have more than one position. Personally, I always retreat to LotR as much as I can, and the Appendices, and love the Silmarillion, but understand its Christopher-ising has caused problems. UT is often helpful. Letters, as supplementary materials for getting at Tolkien's intentions sometimes helps, though there's times I've found that problematic too.

Then, there's a whole bunch of more obscure materials, papers, even journals and Books, I've seen quoted. And high-brow inferential statements about author intention from those. I am enjoying getting into these citations, and have found myself prompted to go delving.....