Elves and Ringwraiths

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think the advanced age theory of MoS is plausible, due to the odd way Tolkien refers to him: he is a Black Numenorean. How is that odd, you say? Considering that the Black Numenoreans as a race had disappeared quite a long time before the War of the Ring (Gondorions of Numenorean descent didn't refer to themselves as Numenoreans either). Could he have prolonged his life due to the necromantic arts Sauron himself taught him?

The story narrative doesn't suggest any advanced age for the Mouth, and to be old by the reckoning of Men and not show it, wouldn't he need to possess something of the Númenórean longevity? I get the idea though that the King's Men/Black Númenóreans lost that advantage more quickly than those of the Faithful, in which case he wouldn't necessarily be that old.

As for using Sauron's sorcery to prolong his life, that could be possible, I guess. In order to acquire "sorcery" from Sauron he needed, I think, to lose enough of his own identity to basically become (like the Ringwraiths) a mere extension of Sauron's will, which could allow him to share in the life of his Master. I wonder if that's the case though, what happened to him after the Ring was destroyed and Sauron fell. Did he die on the spot, or just quietly pine away? What good is a Mouth without a brain behind it? Maybe Tauriel could tell us.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Inziladun:

As for using Sauron's sorcery to prolong his life, that could be possible, I guess. In order to acquire "sorcery" from Sauron he needed, I think, to lose enough of his own identity to basically become (like the Ringwraiths) a mere extension of Sauron's will, which could allow him to share in the life of his Master.

I've recently come to believe (with no textual proof whatsoever) that the Mouth of Sauron was given one of Rings that Sauron recovered from the dwarves. He simply hasn't had it long enough for it to have completely taken over his entire being. He's "part-way" to becoming a Nazgul. This would account for both a longer life, (long enough to have forgotten his own name.) and his ability to speak for Sauron autonomously. I can't prove it, though, obviously.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The story narrative doesn't suggest any advanced age for the Mouth, and to be old by the reckoning of Men and not show it, wouldn't he need to possess something of the Númenórean longevity? I get the idea though that the King's Men/Black Númenóreans lost that advantage more quickly than those of the Faithful, in which case he wouldn't necessarily be that old.

As for using Sauron's sorcery to prolong his life, that could be possible, I guess. In order to acquire "sorcery" from Sauron he needed, I think, to lose enough of his own identity to basically become (like the Ringwraiths) a mere extension of Sauron's will, which could allow him to share in the life of his Master. I wonder if that's the case though, what happened to him after the Ring was destroyed and Sauron fell. Did he die on the spot, or just quietly pine away? What good is a Mouth without a brain behind it? Maybe Tauriel could tell us.

Ah, but the mystery of the Mouth goes deeper, doesn't it? Tolkien, in yet another example of his classic ambiguity, writes that "he [MoS] entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again." Now, is Tolkien referring to when Sauron returned to the Tower after the destruction of Numenor nearly 3000 years previously, or when Sauron reinhabited Barad-dur after his feigned flight from Dol Guldur?

Even if we discount the former and consider the latter (Sauron's retreat from Dol Guldur), MoS went into the service of Sauron about 68 years prior to the events at the Black Gate. Now, I am not sure Sauron took in child prodigies, but even if we allow for the laxity of Mordorion child labor laws, MoS could not be much younger than 20 years old at the time, but most likely older, as Sauron seemed to gravitate to greater men, warriors, sorcerers and kings in their prime. So, MoS had to be at least in his late 80s or more likely 90s when he rode out from the Morannon to confront Aragorn and Gandalf.

He did not appear to be a dotard or wizened as a man of that old age would be; on the contrary, he was described as "A tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse… The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man." Tall and proud: a man in his prime. How can this be? If, as you mention, Inzil, that he was a product of Numenorean blood, how could he be a peer agewise to his adversary Aragorn, whose bloodline ran truer than any man of the time? Denethor, certainly a great man of Gondor whose bloodline was better than most, was unbent but still gray-bearded and mature-looking when he died at 89.

This brings me back to Tolkien referring to MoS as a "Black Numenorean". Again, I find this very intriguing. Tolkien did not say he "was of Black Numenorean descent" or that "his forefathers were Black Numenorean"; no, he says Mos "is" Black Numenorean, as if that were still a viable race. Given Gondor's utter victory against the Haradrim in T.A. 1050, and Tolkien's comment that "some were given over wholly to idleness and ease, and some fought amongst themselves, until they became conquered in their weakness by the wild men," that the Black Numenoreans as a race were diluted far more so than the Dunedain of Gondor. So, nearly 2000 years afterwards, there is still someone who can be identified as Black Numenorean? Isn't that strange? That's like someone in Italy claiming to be an Imperial Roman.

Anyway, ambiguity is the spice of Tolkien.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"(ie stops one getting all warm and fuzzy about The Witch King, before he was a Witch King, and so sad for his fate, coz he woz once-a nice guy who just got led all astray)."

Which would have inevitably led to an awful prequel trilogy focusing on how young Anaquen was seduced to the Dark Side.....

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

"(ie stops one getting all warm and fuzzy about The Witch King, before he was a Witch King, and so sad for his fate, coz he woz once-a nice guy who just got led all astray)."

Which would have inevitably led to an awful prequel trilogy focusing on how young Anaquen was seduced to the Dark Side.....

I'm sure you're right. I suspect that Tolkien, had he been alive and bombarded by fans asking a ka-gillion questions about a mythology with several billion offshoot items mentioned and left tacit, that he may have answered the questions about the fates of the Nazgul.

I want to know what kinds of dreams they started having, what they did when they put their Rings on, how their habits and personalities started changing and also, what happened to their Spirits, bodies and flesh. Did Mandos accept them? Where do Wraiths go in the cosmology when they 'die' or end?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Ah, but the mystery of the Mouth goes deeper, doesn't it? Tolkien, in yet another example of his classic ambiguity, writes that "he [MoS] entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again." Now, is Tolkien referring to when Sauron returned to the Tower after the destruction of Numenor nearly 3000 years previously, or when Sauron reinhabited Barad-dur after his feigned flight from Dol Guldur?

Even if we discount the former and consider the latter (Sauron's retreat from Dol Guldur), MoS went into the service of Sauron about 68 years prior to the events at the Black Gate. Now, I am not sure Sauron took in child prodigies, but even if we allow for the laxity of Mordorion child labor laws, MoS could not be much younger than 20 years old at the time, but most likely older, as Sauron seemed to gravitate to greater men, warriors, sorcerers and kings in their prime. So, MoS had to be at least in his late 80s or more likely 90s when he rode out from the Morannon to confront Aragorn and Gandalf.

He did not appear to be a dotard or wizened as a man of that old age would be; on the contrary, he was described as "A tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse… The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man." Tall and proud: a man in his prime. How can this be? If, as you mention, Inzil, that he was a product of Numenorean blood, how could he be a peer agewise to his adversary Aragorn, whose bloodline ran truer than any man of the time? Denethor, certainly a great man of Gondor whose bloodline was better than most, was unbent but still gray-bearded and mature-looking when he died at 89.

This brings me back to Tolkien referring to MoS as a "Black Numenorean". Again, I find this very intriguing. Tolkien did not say he "was of Black Numenorean descent" or that "his forefathers were Black Numenorean"; no, he says Mos "is" Black Numenorean, as if that were still a viable race. Given Gondor's utter victory against the Haradrim in T.A. 1050, and Tolkien's comment that "some were given over wholly to idleness and ease, and some fought amongst themselves, until they became conquered in their weakness by the wild men," that the Black Numenoreans as a race were diluted far more so than the Dunedain of Gondor. So, nearly 2000 years afterwards, there is still someone who can be identified as Black Numenorean? Isn't that strange? That's like someone in Italy claiming to be an Imperial Roman.

Anyway, ambiguity is the spice of Tolkien.

Hey there Morthoron,

I take your point in the flow of logic, inference, even of intrigue in the discussion about the Mouth of Sauron. I haven't traced and researched my materials about Black Numenoereans--ever--as a detailed, particular delve, but have read what materials there are on them in UT, and--to the extend I can bear reading some of the other stuff (I just can't get my head around readings where the Noldor are 'gnomes' and Valinor 'Kor')--I have some materials probably in those books.

I'll go and have a look and see what's there. But, off the cuff, as a 'habit' or tendency, Tolkien tended to interweave in LotR, the ideas about the 'fading' years of Middle Earth, but where some small aspect, feature, person or artefact for another time could make an appearance. As, for example, the last of the Elves of Valinor were packing house and catching the Last Bus on the Straight Road line to Elfy places we also had Shadowfax, a re-appearance of the 'nobler' former high horsy things, and 'one or two' Palantiri, the vestiges of the empire of a Numenorean-o-rama. We had an elfy blade or two from the First Age, a Blade or two from Arnor (Barrow Wight treasure), Shelob (a fairly big spider, getting a bit towards Ungoliante), and so on.

The 'Last Black Numenorean'? I dunno. As you say, 2000 years is a long time, and it's not like you ever see a Roman Legion marching down the street.

But, now and then, you do see a throw back to a former time, either culturally or genetically. I suppose, in the spirit of Shadowfax, The Mouth of Sauron could have come from that part of Umbar where there still dwelled an enclave of the equivalent of the Rangers of the North, or a scion of a Noble House, or even the product of a child of a captured Gondorian female Dunedain.....that is, the slave traders would probably have taken people from Gondor for that kind of thing. Perhaps they caught someone from Gondor who had a lot of Numenorean blood?

Ivriniel

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Do remember that the Nine were given their rings in the Second Age, and the political geography of Middle-earth was not at all that of the Third (indeed we know little about it). The Ringwraiths first appeared about SA 2250 thirty years before Umbar was built (and they 'appeared', one supposes, quite some time after they had been given their rings).

It is interesting that the appearance of the Ringwraiths comes in the same entry as "Tar-Ancalimon takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins." Could one or more of the RW, when still visible "mortal" men, have been Sauronian agents in Numenor itself?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Do remember that the Nine were given their rings in the Second Age, and the political geography of Middle-earth was not at all that of the Third (indeed we know little about it). The Ringwraiths first appeared about SA 2250 thirty years before Umbar was built (and they 'appeared', one supposes, quite some time after they had been given their rings).

It is interesting that the appearance of the Ringwraiths comes in the same entry as "Tar-Ancalimon takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins." Could one or more of the RW, when still visible "mortal" men, have been Sauronian agents in Numenor itself?

You know, there's no reason to presuppose that this is impossible. Whoever the Witchking was, he certainly had a particular hatred, it does appear, of Arnor, and also of Gondor, and was pivotal in the loss of Elendil's line in Arvedui and Earnil.

We know that there was shipping traffic between Numenor and Middle Earth. There's no necessity, I think, to presuppose that the Nazgul of Numenorean background were all Black Numenoreans from the same region. Sauron/Annatar may well have, or could have 'seduced' (that seems to be Tolkien's favourite word for this), basically, some hapless soul, disaffected by Numenorean propriety, from anywhere! Annatar was able to befuddle the Noldor, though not in Cirdan's region, where there was some suspicion about him.

The Ost-In-Edhil was around quite a few hundred years. Sauron was at it, basically, from nigh the start of SA. He also must have spent times abroad, sometimes for years, because he was able to vanish long enough from Elven circles to build the Sammath Naur, the road to the summit of Orodruin, and the Barad Dur. Those are no small feats. The Bard Dur, I'd have thought, was kinda like building a skyscraper, but with vast dungeons, in a labyrinthine complex.

I.e. plenty of time to go find a Numenorean, in Middle Earth or on a boat from Numenor, that he gifted with a Ring.

So--

[modern reality language mode]...who hated Numenorean Faithful and who were of Numenorean descent? And enough to be so fixated on taking them down? Some disaffected prince, a jacked off distant cousin to the King/Queen of Numenor, or someone who had been publicly shamed in Numenor, or Middle Earth, either on false or real grounds. Presumably, Numenor had its criminal element, swag of thieves, property damage rebellious adolescents, substance users and those bent on sexual improprieties (Eol the Dark Elf was, for example, basically, a sex offender. He imprisoned Idril Celebrindil in his creepy tree house, and of that union Maeglin was born). I assume Sauron would have appealed to grandiosity and entitlement, whilst feeding vengeful thinking (narcissism) as he manipulated the situation. As was the case with Maeglin, I also suspect Sauron seduced by promising wealth, power, social status--and as with Maeglin--sexual entitlement, as well as enhanced sorcery. He sometimes used the word 'sorcery' to hint or suggest at a magical process that was a corrupting influence. He did so for the two Blue Wizards in that little commentary that left indications of their fates and fall into evil ways, for example, and talked about a 'sorcerer' who occupied Dol Guldur before the White Council knew it was Sauron...[/modern reality language mode]

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

(Eol the Dark Elf was, for example, basically, a sex offender. He imprisoned Idril Celebrindil in his creepy tree house, and of that union Maeglin was born)

I think you mean Aredhel Ar-Feiniel, sister of Turgon, as the spouse of Eöl. Idril was the daughter of Turgon, and Maeglin's cousin.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It is interesting that the appearance of the Ringwraiths comes in the same entry as "Tar-Ancalimon takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins." Could one or more of the RW, when still visible "mortal" men, have been Sauronian agents in Numenor itself?

My general assumption was that the three Númenórean Nazgûl would have been Lords in Middle-earth, perhaps colonial governors of the local Haradrim and so on, but I suppose there's no reason to think that they might not have been primarily based in Númenor itself given how much transit evidently existed between Middle-earth and the Land of Gift at the time. The reason I mention transit is because I would argue that Sauron probably didn't go to Númenor to dispense Rings.
As you point out WCH, the Ringwraiths appeared in 2251, thirty years into the reign of Tar-Ancalimon (2221-2386). The shadow first fell on Númenor apparently during the reign of his grandfather Tar-Ciryatan (1869-2029). The One Ring was forged c. 1600, and Sauron acquired the Nine during the War of the Elves and Sauron (1693-1701). If Sauron seized and dispensed the Nine prior to or during the reign of Tar-Ciryatan then between the War and Ciryatan's death there is a healthy time frame of 168-328 years. Perhaps the Númenórean Ringbearers might have had some influence in the descent of the shadow upon Westernesse.
If I think about it, Númenóreans would in some respects be ideal people to provide with Rings: they already had abundant resources and power to turn to their advantage, and being an already longeval people, any Ring-granted longevity would be unremarkable and no cause for suspicion. That being said, Tar-Ciryatan's corruption might also have been observed by Sauron as an opportunity to put the Rings to work, rather than the Rings sowing the seeds of corruption. Indeed personally I am more inclined to support the notion that the corruption came before the Rings, as in my opinion it is more thematically effective if Sauron is the exacerbator, rather than the originator, of the darkening of Númenor.

If I might touch upon the Mouth of Sauron, incidentally, I don't think it's necessarily implausible for us to imagine enclaves of Black Númenóreans surviving in certain places, deep in Harad and elsewhere. This is pure speculation. I simply don't think the Mouth of Sauron could have been both a) extremely ancient, and b) not a wraith.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I think you mean Aredhel Ar-Feiniel, sister of Turgon, as the spouse of Eöl. Idril was the daughter of Turgon, and Maeglin's cousin.

apologies, yes. In fact, I've repeated that error many times, over the years. crossed wire memory.

Point though, was not about genealogy. It was about Eol's sex offending and creepy tree house. Developmental delay What's a full grown elf doing playing in tree houses?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

If I think about it, Númenóreans would in some respects be ideal people to provide with Rings: they already had abundant resources and power to turn to their advantage, and being an already longeval people, any Ring-granted longevity would be unremarkable and no cause for suspicion.

At the same time, the fact that the rings DO grant immortality (of a sort) might very well appeal to a corrupted Numenorean already obsessed with the "Elves live forever, why shouldn't we?" mindset that was decending in Numenor.