What if Glorfindel joined the fellowship to Lothlorien?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Arathorn111

The main reason for adding Glorfindel as a guard, according to my weird little world, was as a precaution towards Durins Bane, should the fellowship be forced to take the route through Moria.

That returns to the fact that the true nature of Durin's Bane wasn't known by any of the Fellowship, or indeed by anyone in Rivendell. Both Aragorn and Gandalf had been through Moria previously, and neither had perceived, or apparently encountered, the Balrog.
Dáin had gotten a partial glimpse of it during the Battle of Azanulbizar, but had no inkling of what it was.
That being the case, Gandalf's logic for not including an "elf-lord" in the Fellowship is sound enough.

[Arathorn111]

No one knew what Durings Bane was, but surely Gandalf and Elrond would have suspected that it was a Balrog, or am I just drunk and confused here?

I didn't mean that Glorfindel was to join the company for the soly purpose of defeating the Balrog, but because it would be wise to bring perhaps the greatest warrior that still lived against what ever Durins Bane might be.

[Boromir88]

Originally Elrond had not intended for Merry and Pippin to join the Fellowship, and was going to choose, if I remember correctly, two member of his own house. I would wager the two were going to be his sons, Elladan and Elrohir. The two had went ahead before the Fellowship left to scout out the route and who had later went with the Dunedain to Minas Tirith.

I doubt Glorfindel would have been one of the companions. Elrond and Gandalf's entire plan was based on a belief it was impossible to defeat Sauron through strength of arms. It was their rejection of the temptation for ultimate power (the Ring) and to place it all in a "fool's hope." Therefor, any chance for the plan's success relied on fate and secrecy. Elrond plainly said so after Frodo accepted the task:

"If I understand aright all that I have heard...I think this task was appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will. This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and the counsels of the great. Who of all the wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?"~The Council of Elrond

One might question, if the quest hinged on secrecy, wouldn't Sauron notice a powerful Istari in the group? Sauron had figured Saruman out. Sauron knew best how to deal with Saruman because they were of similar mind. Gandalf was another matter though. Gandalf's thoughts had always alluded Sauron, and Gandalf was effective at keeping his true nature cloaked. He only reveals the extent of his true power in the battle with Durin's Bane.

Then when you consider Glorfindel, it's not just the fact "this powerful 1st age Noldor elf lord leaving Rivendell with others" would likely attract more attention. It has to be remembered it was Glorfindel who, in all his might and power drove the Nazgul into the flood. When the Nazgul return to Mordor to be given new mounts, I'm sure they would have reported the full encounter and circumstances of their drowning back to Sauron. If that same elf who was powerful enough to drive the 9 into the flood left with the company, might as well just put a huge "kick me" sign on their back.

[Arathorn111]

You have valid points Borormir, but Gandalf reveals himself at Caradhras, does he not? At that point, would it change Saurons mind having Glorfindel with them? I mean, if Sauron did discover that Gandalf along with a company of hobbits (the last known ringbearers to Saurons knowledge) left Rivendell (the last place the ring was known to be) would he not have susspected the same thing, Glorfindol or no Glorfindel?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Arathorn111

You have valid points Borormir, but Gandalf reveals himself at Caradhras, does he not? At that point, would it change Saurons mind having Glorfindel with them? I mean, if Sauron did discover that Gandalf along with a company of hobbits (the last known ringbearers to Saurons knowledge) left Rivendell (the last place the ring was known to be) would he not have susspected the same thing, Glorfindol or no Glorfindel?

Arathorn, you still seem to be assuming everything that happened to the Fellowship was planned, or at least known about in advance. I mean, this isn't some fourth-wall-breaker deal where the characters get to flip ahead and learn the plot of the book they're in.

[Arathorn111]

Nerwen, I suppose you are right, the "what if"-thinking got a bit unrealistic under the affection of an ale to many. I apologise and I thank you for pointing that out

[Rhod the Red]

Tom Bombidilo? Lol, not really conceivable. But if he did.......I imagine it'd succeed more easily in some respects. But when they're supposed to be sneaking about in Mordor, could he keep quiet & resist the need to sing?

To big a risk to take

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Originally Elrond had not intended for Merry and Pippin to join the Fellowship, and was going to choose, if I remember correctly, two member of his own house. I would wager the two were going to be his sons, Elladan and Elrohir. The two had went ahead before the Fellowship left to scout out the route and who had later went with the Dunedain to Minas Tirith

Yeah why didn't they go? What was the reasoning here, wasn't it something like, and I'm paraphrasing, "taking the Ring to the Fire is a hopeless mission, and since it's (next to) impossible the small may just as well attempt it as the great"? Which is pretty daft if you ask me. Like if Rafael Nadal appears on a local clay-court and he wants a challenger, and you respond by sending out a limp and near-sighted senior citizen instead of the local tennis champion since neither is likely to win. Objectively Merry and Pippin are quite useless to the Quest, and when Gandalf insists that they are to come too the only way it makes sense if by some divine premonition. Gandalf intended to accompany Frodo into Mordor if I remember correctly, and he would've been a great guide. Aragorn would too, but intended to go to Minas Tirith, but when Gandalf fell he was going to take on that responsibility. But really, wouldn't it make sense to bring some more people who knew their stuff, as a back-up? Pippin couldn't find Gondor on a map for christ's sake.

Originally Posted by Arathorn

I know that it would be folly to send the most powerfull elves to Mordor, since Sauron would have spotted them before they could have destroyed the ring.

Why, does Sauron have some kind of spot-the-Elf special ability?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Objectively Merry and Pippin are quite useless to the Quest, and when Gandalf insists that they are to come too the only way it makes sense if by some divine premonition.

I think that's the key. Gandalf "felt" that Merry and Pippin should be included, and that feeling was strong enough that he and Elrond apparently had some animated discussion about it. The wisdom of that gut feeling was obviously borne out, for Merry and Pippin were bait for Saruman, who arranged their transport to Fangorn.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yeah why didn't they go? What was the reasoning here, wasn't it something like, and I'm paraphrasing, "taking the Ring to the Fire is a hopeless mission, and since it's (next to) impossible the small may just as well attempt it as the great"? Which is pretty daft if you ask me. Like if Rafael Nadal appears on a local clay-court and he wants a challenger, and you respond by sending out a limp and near-sighted senior citizen instead of the local tennis champion since neither is likely to win. Objectively Merry and Pippin are quite useless to the Quest, and when Gandalf insists that they are to come too the only way it makes sense if by some divine premonition. Gandalf intended to accompany Frodo into Mordor if I remember correctly, and he would've been a great guide. Aragorn would too, but intended to go to Minas Tirith, but when Gandalf fell he was going to take on that responsibility. But really, wouldn't it make sense to bring some more people who knew their stuff, as a back-up? Pippin couldn't find Gondor on a map for christ's sake.

Why, does Sauron have some kind of spot-the-Elf special ability?

Actually by that sort of thinking, it almost makes no sense NOT to have Glorfindel going, limit of nine or no. Elrond KNOWS Aragorn and Boromir are planning to not go with the fellowship into Mordor, but head for Minas Tirith. In otherwords, two of the objectively best fighters in the group are planning to leave around when the trip will be most likely to get into the point where being spotted and having to fight is probably most likey (i.e. even if Sauron isn't expecting anyone to do what the fellowship is doing, Mordor is going to have a much higher likeyhood of bumping into Mordorian troopd on random patrol than anywhere else.) Elrond THINKS Gandalf will probably stick with Frodo, but there are probably circumstances where even HE might break off (say if Sarumam comes up with a plan so dangerous that Gandalf needs to directly intervene to keep it from suceededing (basically what he does do, but happening while Gandalf is still accompanying an unbroken fellowship as opposed to one that no longer has a Frodo and Sam with it, and Gandalf still being the Gray) Plus Elronds seems to have some inklings that something might happen to Gandalf. So under those circumstances, Elrond would have to assume that Frodo might be entering Mordor guarded by only three hobbits one elf and one dwarf. Legolas and Gimli can safely be assumed to be competent fighters, but they aren't going to likely to be enough to deal with say the group being surrounded by an Orc platoon. Sam Merry and Pippin will certainly fight to the death to protect Frodo, but in this case "to the death" is likey to be very very soon, and not actually accomplish much vis a vis keeping Frodo safe. Under those circumstances sending Glorfindel as a sort of "backup" Gandalf would make a lot of sense. He is going to be at least decent guide, especially if Elrond thinks far enough ahead to send him a long with a COPY of the Map Frodo was shown (seriously, given how long the fellowiship was in Rivendell preparing, you'd think Elrond would have seen a copy got into thier hands (maybe he did, but he gave it to Gandalf or Aragorn). He's a master warrior, so probably can slaugter any roving orc patrols they are unlucky enough to bump into. And if worse comes to worse, and a Nazgul actually does spot Frodo, Glorfindel is probably the only person in Middle Earth (again except maybe Gandalf) who can go toe-to-toe with a Ringwraith and have a decent chance of actually winning, or at least surviving.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Interesting point by Boromir about Elladan and Elrohir being chosen by Elrond.
I had always assumed one of them would have been Glorfindel (and Tauriel? )
--- ducks bricks---

But assume you're an Elrond advisor and he's unsure. Who would you pick.
What about another dwarf and a junior Rivendell elf so both northern elf
polities are representative. Dwarfs would be useful if some of the company tried
to get through to Mordor (and I believe Aragorn was going to include Gimli
in the core company to get to Mount Doom.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Actually by that sort of thinking, it almost makes no sense NOT to have Glorfindel going, limit of nine or no. Elrond KNOWS Aragorn and Boromir are planning to not go with the fellowship into Mordor, but head for Minas Tirith. In otherwords, two of the objectively best fighters in the group are planning to leave around when the trip will be most likely to get into the point where being spotted and having to fight is probably most likey (i.e. even if Sauron isn't expecting anyone to do what the fellowship is doing, Mordor is going to have a much higher likeyhood of bumping into Mordorian troopd on random patrol than anywhere else.) Elrond THINKS Gandalf will probably stick with Frodo, but there are probably circumstances where even HE might break off (say if Sarumam comes up with a plan so dangerous that Gandalf needs to directly intervene to keep it from suceededing (basically what he does do, but happening while Gandalf is still accompanying an unbroken fellowship as opposed to one that no longer has a Frodo and Sam with it, and Gandalf still being the Gray) Plus Elronds seems to have some inklings that something might happen to Gandalf. So under those circumstances, Elrond would have to assume that Frodo might be entering Mordor guarded by only three hobbits one elf and one dwarf. Legolas and Gimli can safely be assumed to be competent fighters, but they aren't going to likely to be enough to deal with say the group being surrounded by an Orc platoon. Sam Merry and Pippin will certainly fight to the death to protect Frodo, but in this case "to the death" is likey to be very very soon, and not actually accomplish much vis a vis keeping Frodo safe. Under those circumstances sending Glorfindel as a sort of "backup" Gandalf would make a lot of sense. He is going to be at least decent guide, especially if Elrond thinks far enough ahead to send him a long with a COPY of the Map Frodo was shown (seriously, given how long the fellowiship was in Rivendell preparing, you'd think Elrond would have seen a copy got into thier hands (maybe he did, but he gave it to Gandalf or Aragorn). He's a master warrior, so probably can slaugter any roving orc patrols they are unlucky enough to bump into. And if worse comes to worse, and a Nazgul actually does spot Frodo, Glorfindel is probably the only person in Middle Earth (again except maybe Gandalf) who can go toe-to-toe with a Ringwraith and have a decent chance of actually winning, or at least surviving.

If it had happened that in Mordor the group is "surrounded by an Orc platoon", they would have been almost certainly doomed anyway - the disclosure was a sentence. And, I am sure, there was nothing that Saruman could do to make Gandalf abandon Frodo, unless he (Saruman) goes forward and fights Gandalf in person.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

If it had happened that in Mordor the group is "surrounded by an Orc platoon", they would have been almost certainly doomed anyway - the disclosure was a sentence. And, I am sure, there was nothing that Saruman could do to make Gandalf abandon Frodo, unless he (Saruman) goes forward and fights Gandalf in person.

I'm not so sure of that, at least, I'm not so sure there would not come situations to make Gandalf be willing to leave at least temporarily, like he did in the Hobbit. If Saruman was left completely unopposed, it is likely that his plan would have suceeded. Theoden would have probably been dead or impotent, Eomer would likey have been caught and excuted, Grima would be married to Eowyn and probably in charge of Rohan meaning Saruman would be in charge), Fangorn would probably be leveled and the massacred (they were the turning point in the assault, but would they have done so well had they had to try and take down Isengard entirely on thier own, especially or even if Rohan was on Saruman's side. And that's assuming that, in the absence of Merry and Pippen the Ent Moot would even have worked). No Rohan, no help for Minas Tirith, (including no Dead men of Dunharrow, no Gandalf to buy time agaist the WK and no Eowyn to slay him, so the siege would likey have suceeded. Gandalf maybe believe that his missing will not have failed if anything remains intact, but when faced with the likelyhood of that "anything" basically consisting of the Shire and Bree (if that) might give even him pause.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yeah why didn't they go? What was the reasoning here, wasn't it something like, and I'm paraphrasing, "taking the Ring to the Fire is a hopeless mission, and since it's (next to) impossible the small may just as well attempt it as the great"? Which is pretty daft if you ask me. Like if Rafael Nadal appears on a local clay-court and he wants a challenger, and you respond by sending out a limp and near-sighted senior citizen instead of the local tennis champion since neither is likely to win. Objectively Merry and Pippin are quite useless to the Quest, and when Gandalf insists that they are to come too the only way it makes sense if by some divine premonition. Gandalf intended to accompany Frodo into Mordor if I remember correctly, and he would've been a great guide. Aragorn would too, but intended to go to Minas Tirith, but when Gandalf fell he was going to take on that responsibility. But really, wouldn't it make sense to bring some more people who knew their stuff, as a back-up? Pippin couldn't find Gondor on a map for christ's sake.

Gandlaf was not planning to play tennis with Rafa. ))) He was not supposed to be involved in a personal combat with Sauron.

What I would say - if the competition is not in playing tennis but in finding a needle on the court it could happen than a kid can be more efficient than Nadal. And if the quest is to recall all great champions of the past, n that case "a limp and near-sighted senior citizen" can be much better.

Originally Posted by skip spence

Why, does Sauron have some kind of spot-the-Elf special ability?

Yes, these guys were able to feel "the presence of the Force" Gandalf was actually extremely good at keeping low profile.

[Inziladun]

I think the composition of the Nine Walkers, after Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, Boromir, and Aragorn, was largely a product of Elrond's recognition of the "chance" that had brought so many disparate persons to Rivendell at once.
He said during the Council that he had not "called" its members, but that they were intended to find a solution to the problem of the Ring anyway. Seeing that an Elf from Mirkwood and a Lonely Mountain Dwarf were willing and available to go with the Ring, would have seemed too serendipitous to ignore, especially coupled with Gandalf's insight that an elven-lord like Glorfindel would make little difference.

[HerenIstarion]

Since we are freely speculating, let me add some of my own

Sending Glorfindel along (though it might have been considered by JRRT as the suggestion is hinted at during the council) would tie the story to much with the Legendarium - and yet Tolkien was writing a new story - descended/coming/arising/ from tied to/hanging on the past, but not being the past in itself, if you follow my meaning) would have been a breach of certain general canvas:

Mark like all great characters from the past are passive - Cirdan, Elrond, Galadriel (the latter, admittedly, 'striving with the Enemy in her mind' (excuse lopsided citing, I'm on the go, citing from memory) - but they don't move about much - their purpose is just that - to tie the current events with those of first and second ages

They are all tied to certain places too (resembling Tom Bombadil in that respect) - not going far from their own boundaries that they themselves have set (well, Aragorn-Arwen and Elrond at the wedding is another story). When Glorfindel roams whereabouts of Rivendell in search of Ring-Bearer and the fellowship, he's actually doing as much as all them 'old chars' do - 'beating the bounds', or going just little beyond the boundaries of their own realm

Whilst sending Glorfindel along would turn the story into something resembling the first age (and also diminish respective roles of all others. + I don't thikn Gimli-Glorfindel friendship line would work as good as Legolas-Gimli line did. For dwarf-elf controversy, goes back to first age too, with Thingol's murder and silmarils, but immediate connotation here is restoration of friendship between Erebor and the Forest because of what Thranduil did to Thorin and Co (and of course Gloin Gimli's father)

One might argue here that Gandalf, being Olorin, is first age person too (Saruman, Radagast and Sauron too, for that matter)

But Sauron acts just like the other 'oldhands' - sitting in his realm, just being the baddie and the bully he's sending his chaps along to conquer (but himself, he's tied there too - striving with Galadriel in mind (the other side of the same coin) and roaming the world with his Eye)

Whilst Istari are cardinally new thing - old spirits though they may be, they are incarnate

I hope I'm coherent enough, and did not tire you with this stream of consciousness - as I'm almost thinking aloud, writing it down as it comes to my mind

Cheers

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Gandlaf was not planning to play tennis with Rafa. ))) He was not supposed to be involved in a personal combat with Sauron.

What I would say - if the competition is not in playing tennis but in finding a needle on the court it could happen than a kid can be more efficient than Nadal. And if the quest is to recall all great champions of the past, n that case "a limp and near-sighted senior citizen" can be much better.

Heh, no they weren't playing tennis unfortunately, I bet Glorfy would kick Sauron's hiney on the centre court! Okay the metaphor was inept perhaps, but still, what exactly would Merry and Pippin be expected to contribute with, apart from bourgeois chit-chat?

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Yes, these guys were able to feel "the presence of the Force" Gandalf was actually extremely good at keeping low profile.

Mm much like WCH I think too much is made of this sensing the presence of, you know, po-wah. Sure, Gandalf and the Balrog could sense each other in Moria but only (as I remember it) when they had just a door between them and when they were using their magic in direct conflict.

Speaking of Elf lords and Sauron, there is the event when Felagund was captured. Together with Beren and his companions they traveled up the vale of Sirion hoping to get past Tol-in-Gaurhoth on their way to Angband. Sporting the gear of slain orcs and also the faces of them by courtesy of Felagund's magic they got quite far but Sauron grew suspicious and waylaid them when they did not stop to report their deeds as all servants of Morgoth were ordered to do. So here we have a great Elf-lord trying to sneak past Sauron and although he is caught it's by rather mundane means, not by Sauron 'sensing a disturbance in the force'. And Felagund's magic tricks seems to come very much in handy. I bet Glorfy could do some pretty nifty stuff too.

[Arathorn111]

WOW! This thread has exploded since I last checked on it, and I love it!


Skip sense (and others):

Well to be honest the ability of Sauron of spoting great powers is something I've gotten from reading to many posts here on the barrows, and I thought that my post would get slaughtered if I didnät include this.


Tuor in Gondolin:

Then why not include a representative of the elves of Rivendell?


Thank you all for keeping the discussion alive!

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Mm much like WCH I think too much is made of this sensing the presence of, you know, po-wah. Sure, Gandalf and the Balrog could sense each other in Moria but only (as I remember it) when they had just a door between them and when they were using their magic in direct conflict.

Honestly, I was joking and think, the matter of Sauron's "elf-dar" is a red herring. We know that the presence of big baddies in proximity was felt by all creatures. Nazgul are known for sending even big formations into panic, while the proximity of the Balrog even Aragorn, who was able to sustain the terror of five Nazgul, as well as Legolas, who later successfully shoot a Nazgul over the Great river with his arrow, have got unwilling to raise their arms. Even Barrow wights paralysed and confused those in their presence.

It seemed to me, big Goodies produced some effect on baddies too. Orks probably hated the aura of Loth-Lorien and were unable to fight there properly. The sight of an elf-lord in his wrath contributed to the panic among Nazgul at the Ford. Gullum naturally suffered of everything made by elves (even elves of Mirkwood).

I am not saying Sauron could search ME with just gazing from his Tower, but let's not forget that both Galladriel and Gandalf were able to fight his mind on a great distance. And if Galladriel's location was known, Sauron could hardly have expected an assault from Gandalf the White sitting high, looking far... ))))

But the real matter was the travel through Mordor. Hobbits were extremely capable of stay unnoticed when they wanted so. A presence of an elf-lord in Mordor could have been disclosed easier.

The other thing that could have come to Gandalf's mind (we cannot know) was that as hobbits were not known to the folk of Mordor, it would be possible to send the enemy on a false trail, as it happened in the end. If Pipin and Mery would have promptly entered Minath Tirith, the enemy would have located the Ring in a wrong way.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Arathorn111

even if they didn't know that Durins Bane wans't a Balrog at least they would have excepted as much.

But why would they have any reason to anticipate the presence of an ancient demon of a kind that, as far as they knew, had been wiped out or vanished over six thousand years earlier?

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That returns to the fact that the true nature of Durin's Bane wasn't known by any of the Fellowship, or indeed by anyone in Rivendell. Both Aragorn and Gandalf had been through Moria previously, and neither had perceived, or apparently encountered, the Balrog.
Dáin had gotten a partial glimpse of it during the Battle of Azanulbizar, but had no inkling of what it was.
That being the case, Gandalf's logic for not including an "elf-lord" in the Fellowship is sound enough.

Exactly.
Admittedly I daresay Glorfindel's presence might have been useful, but as we've established he would have been too much of a target, even travelling from one Elven land to another, which they hadn't planned anyway. The point is, the Fellowship as it was didn't stand out on the 'spiritual radar' as it were, which is seemingly why it took until Rauros for Sauron (and Saruman) to find them in the wilderness. If they'd been more obvious, with Glorfindel, perhaps it would have been far easier for Sauron to assault them more powerfully and more quickly.

[Arathorn111]

Didn't they know that a few Balrogs (or was it just the one?) just run away, rather than fight to the end? (Altough a Barlrog perhaps would't be their first guess as to what Durins Bane really was).

I thank you all who has responded and convinced me that it was far from an obvious result to include Glorfindel!