What if Glorfindel joined the fellowship to Lothlorien?

[Arathorn111]

I know that the discusson of replacing and/or adding some of the elves of Rivendell to the fellowship has been discussed before. I know that it would be folly to send the most powerfull elves to Mordor, since Sauron would have spotted them before they could have destroyed the ring. But what if Glorfindel would have joined them at least to Lotrlorien? Since Gandalf reveiled himself the problem of conceileng Glorfindel wouldn't be as big a problem.

The plan B of the fellowship is to take the path of Moria, and even if they didn't know that Durins Bane wans't a Balrog at least they would have excepted as much. So why don't send the Balrog Slayer, Grolfindel, at least to Lorien? Sending a Great Elven warrior from one elven realm to another would hardly arouse Saurons suscpicon .

Was this option chosen because they didn't think they would need Glorfindel, because they didn't want to alert Sauron or because they needed Glorfindel in Rivendell?

[Arathorn111]

As the title says I just wan't to make the posts question clear.
1. Why didn't Glorfindel join the company?
2. What would have happened if he did? Would he just kick the a** of the Balrog and let Gandalf fly with the others?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Arathorn111

1. Why didn't Glorfindel join the company?

If I recall correctly, the decision had already been made by Elrond that Legolas would be the Fellowship's Elven representative, when they were trying to decide on the final two slots. Why him, and not Glorfindel? Well, maybe it was thought that Glorfindel, and the Noldor in general, had already had their time of glory in the First Age, and their time in Middle-earth was winding down. The Silvan Elves had traditionally been of little account in comparison, Legolas was there at Rivendell, and he was selected.

Originally Posted by Arathorn111

2. What would have happened if he did? Would he just kick the a** of the Balrog and let Gandalf fly with the others?

Glorfindel might have "felt" the presence of the Balrog very early, leading to an alteration of the decision to enter Moria at all. Though he had been able to defeat one long before, I am sure he would not have relished the idea of another contest. Maybe the company would have kept trying Caradhras and frozen to death!
At any rate, I think it would have cheapened the story, and completely spoiled Gandalf's great sacrifice and subsequent return. How could Gandalf the Grey have defeated Saruman, or even healed Théoden as he did as the White? You could say that it was another instance of "fate" playing its part, and making conditions right for greater events to occur beyond a single Elf having another moment of glory.

[Arathorn111]

Inziladuin:

Yes the Noldor weren't much involved, directly, to the events of the late third age, but to send Glorfindel to Lorien wouldn't have hurt, would it?
To send a Silvan elf to represent the elves is the most logical choice at the time of the late third age, but I picture Glorfindel as just a "guard" to Lorien.

Yes everything had to happen the way it did for the story to play out the way it did, but I was just thinking short term here. But do you really think that the addition of Glorfindel would change the way the fellowship took?

[Galadriel55]

I have a feeling that Glorfindel would have gone, out of a sense of duty, if the two last open slots of the Fellowship would not have been filled by Merry and Pippin. As for going as a guard, even if you're going half-way you're still going. If yu add one guard, you may as well add two, and three, and the point of 9 members is gone. Also, they did not know for sure they would pass through Lorien. Beyond that they had to start out going south, they had no clue what their route will be. They had to improvise on the spot depending on the situation. Giving them a guard until a certain point defeats this point also. And if you don't give the guard a destination up to which he must protect the Fellowship, I doubt anyone would just say mid-way that his job is done and he will return home. He'd follow till the end, which would just make it 10 members. 9 is a good number - not too big, not too small, and it reflects the number of the Nazgul. If you stray to either direction you may as well forget the whole idea altogether.

[Arathorn111]

Since none of the members of the fellowship, except Frodo, were bound to go Mordor (Aragorn and Boromir were heading for Minas Thirith for example) I think that it wouldn't be a problem that Glorfindel would only follow them for just one part of the journey. As for the fellowship being nine walkers to counter the nine riders it would have been ruined if Glorfindel as well would have joined them IF he would have been appointed a member of the fellowship.

The main reason for adding Glorfindel as a guard, according to my weird little world, was as a precaution towards Durins Bane, should the fellowship be forced to take the route through Moria.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Arathorn111

The main reason for adding Glorfindel as a guard, according to my weird little world, was as a precaution towards Durins Bane, should the fellowship be forced to take the route through Moria.

That returns to the fact that the true nature of Durin's Bane wasn't known by any of the Fellowship, or indeed by anyone in Rivendell. Both Aragorn and Gandalf had been through Moria previously, and neither had perceived, or apparently encountered, the Balrog.
Dáin had gotten a partial glimpse of it during the Battle of Azanulbizar, but had no inkling of what it was.
That being the case, Gandalf's logic for not including an "elf-lord" in the Fellowship is sound enough.

[Arathorn111]

No one knew what Durings Bane was, but surely Gandalf and Elrond would have suspected that it was a Balrog, or am I just drunk and confused here?

I didn't mean that Glorfindel was to join the company for the soly purpose of defeating the Balrog, but because it would be wise to bring perhaps the greatest warrior that still lived against what ever Durins Bane might be.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Arathorn111

even if they didn't know that Durins Bane wans't a Balrog at least they would have excepted as much.

But why would they have any reason to anticipate the presence of an ancient demon of a kind that, as far as they knew, had been wiped out or vanished over six thousand years earlier?

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That returns to the fact that the true nature of Durin's Bane wasn't known by any of the Fellowship, or indeed by anyone in Rivendell. Both Aragorn and Gandalf had been through Moria previously, and neither had perceived, or apparently encountered, the Balrog.
Dáin had gotten a partial glimpse of it during the Battle of Azanulbizar, but had no inkling of what it was.
That being the case, Gandalf's logic for not including an "elf-lord" in the Fellowship is sound enough.

Exactly.
Admittedly I daresay Glorfindel's presence might have been useful, but as we've established he would have been too much of a target, even travelling from one Elven land to another, which they hadn't planned anyway. The point is, the Fellowship as it was didn't stand out on the 'spiritual radar' as it were, which is seemingly why it took until Rauros for Sauron (and Saruman) to find them in the wilderness. If they'd been more obvious, with Glorfindel, perhaps it would have been far easier for Sauron to assault them more powerfully and more quickly.

[Arathorn111]

Didn't they know that a few Balrogs (or was it just the one?) just run away, rather than fight to the end? (Altough a Barlrog perhaps would't be their first guess as to what Durins Bane really was).

I thank you all who has responded and convinced me that it was far from an obvious result to include Glorfindel!

[Boromir88]

Originally Elrond had not intended for Merry and Pippin to join the Fellowship, and was going to choose, if I remember correctly, two member of his own house. I would wager the two were going to be his sons, Elladan and Elrohir. The two had went ahead before the Fellowship left to scout out the route and who had later went with the Dunedain to Minas Tirith.

I doubt Glorfindel would have been one of the companions. Elrond and Gandalf's entire plan was based on a belief it was impossible to defeat Sauron through strength of arms. It was their rejection of the temptation for ultimate power (the Ring) and to place it all in a "fool's hope." Therefor, any chance for the plan's success relied on fate and secrecy. Elrond plainly said so after Frodo accepted the task:

"If I understand aright all that I have heard...I think this task was appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will. This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and the counsels of the great. Who of all the wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?"~The Council of Elrond

One might question, if the quest hinged on secrecy, wouldn't Sauron notice a powerful Istari in the group? Sauron had figured Saruman out. Sauron knew best how to deal with Saruman because they were of similar mind. Gandalf was another matter though. Gandalf's thoughts had always alluded Sauron, and Gandalf was effective at keeping his true nature cloaked. He only reveals the extent of his true power in the battle with Durin's Bane.

Then when you consider Glorfindel, it's not just the fact "this powerful 1st age Noldor elf lord leaving Rivendell with others" would likely attract more attention. It has to be remembered it was Glorfindel who, in all his might and power drove the Nazgul into the flood. When the Nazgul return to Mordor to be given new mounts, I'm sure they would have reported the full encounter and circumstances of their drowning back to Sauron. If that same elf who was powerful enough to drive the 9 into the flood left with the company, might as well just put a huge "kick me" sign on their back.

[Arathorn111]

You have valid points Borormir, but Gandalf reveals himself at Caradhras, does he not? At that point, would it change Saurons mind having Glorfindel with them? I mean, if Sauron did discover that Gandalf along with a company of hobbits (the last known ringbearers to Saurons knowledge) left Rivendell (the last place the ring was known to be) would he not have susspected the same thing, Glorfindol or no Glorfindel?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Arathorn111

You have valid points Borormir, but Gandalf reveals himself at Caradhras, does he not? At that point, would it change Saurons mind having Glorfindel with them? I mean, if Sauron did discover that Gandalf along with a company of hobbits (the last known ringbearers to Saurons knowledge) left Rivendell (the last place the ring was known to be) would he not have susspected the same thing, Glorfindol or no Glorfindel?

Arathorn, you still seem to be assuming everything that happened to the Fellowship was planned, or at least known about in advance. I mean, this isn't some fourth-wall-breaker deal where the characters get to flip ahead and learn the plot of the book they're in.

[Arathorn111]

Nerwen, I suppose you are right, the "what if"-thinking got a bit unrealistic under the affection of an ale to many. I apologise and I thank you for pointing that out

[Rhod the Red]

Tom Bombidilo? Lol, not really conceivable. But if he did.......I imagine it'd succeed more easily in some respects. But when they're supposed to be sneaking about in Mordor, could he keep quiet & resist the need to sing?

To big a risk to take

[Sarumian]

I totally agree that Glorfindel's presence could have made the Fellowship much more noticeable to the Enemy and his servants. On the other hand, Glorfindel was a great Captain, he headed the host from Rivendell against Angmar and was capable of withstanding the Nine. As a small company the Fellowship could hardly need a second warrior of this league as they already had Gandalf, but in case Rivendell had had to send a host out they would have been in need of a capable commander to allow Elrond to remain in charge of Rivendell itself.

[blantyr]

I thought the decision was... well... sentimental might not quite be the right word. I think Gandalf made the key speech which swung the decision in favor of the hobbits. It wasn't a question of power, but of heart. It was the Hobbits' time.

[Lérië]

Would not the Balrog sense Glorfindel's presence? Maybe Balrogs can hold a grudge, but I doubt this one remembers Glorfindel, or maybe he has never even heard or seen the Balrog Slayer.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Originally Elrond had not intended for Merry and Pippin to join the Fellowship, and was going to choose, if I remember correctly, two member of his own house. I would wager the two were going to be his sons, Elladan and Elrohir. The two had went ahead before the Fellowship left to scout out the route and who had later went with the Dunedain to Minas Tirith

Yeah why didn't they go? What was the reasoning here, wasn't it something like, and I'm paraphrasing, "taking the Ring to the Fire is a hopeless mission, and since it's (next to) impossible the small may just as well attempt it as the great"? Which is pretty daft if you ask me. Like if Rafael Nadal appears on a local clay-court and he wants a challenger, and you respond by sending out a limp and near-sighted senior citizen instead of the local tennis champion since neither is likely to win. Objectively Merry and Pippin are quite useless to the Quest, and when Gandalf insists that they are to come too the only way it makes sense if by some divine premonition. Gandalf intended to accompany Frodo into Mordor if I remember correctly, and he would've been a great guide. Aragorn would too, but intended to go to Minas Tirith, but when Gandalf fell he was going to take on that responsibility. But really, wouldn't it make sense to bring some more people who knew their stuff, as a back-up? Pippin couldn't find Gondor on a map for christ's sake.

Originally Posted by Arathorn

I know that it would be folly to send the most powerfull elves to Mordor, since Sauron would have spotted them before they could have destroyed the ring.

Why, does Sauron have some kind of spot-the-Elf special ability?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Objectively Merry and Pippin are quite useless to the Quest, and when Gandalf insists that they are to come too the only way it makes sense if by some divine premonition.

I think that's the key. Gandalf "felt" that Merry and Pippin should be included, and that feeling was strong enough that he and Elrond apparently had some animated discussion about it. The wisdom of that gut feeling was obviously borne out, for Merry and Pippin were bait for Saruman, who arranged their transport to Fangorn.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yeah why didn't they go? What was the reasoning here, wasn't it something like, and I'm paraphrasing, "taking the Ring to the Fire is a hopeless mission, and since it's (next to) impossible the small may just as well attempt it as the great"? Which is pretty daft if you ask me. Like if Rafael Nadal appears on a local clay-court and he wants a challenger, and you respond by sending out a limp and near-sighted senior citizen instead of the local tennis champion since neither is likely to win. Objectively Merry and Pippin are quite useless to the Quest, and when Gandalf insists that they are to come too the only way it makes sense if by some divine premonition. Gandalf intended to accompany Frodo into Mordor if I remember correctly, and he would've been a great guide. Aragorn would too, but intended to go to Minas Tirith, but when Gandalf fell he was going to take on that responsibility. But really, wouldn't it make sense to bring some more people who knew their stuff, as a back-up? Pippin couldn't find Gondor on a map for christ's sake.

Why, does Sauron have some kind of spot-the-Elf special ability?

Actually by that sort of thinking, it almost makes no sense NOT to have Glorfindel going, limit of nine or no. Elrond KNOWS Aragorn and Boromir are planning to not go with the fellowship into Mordor, but head for Minas Tirith. In otherwords, two of the objectively best fighters in the group are planning to leave around when the trip will be most likely to get into the point where being spotted and having to fight is probably most likey (i.e. even if Sauron isn't expecting anyone to do what the fellowship is doing, Mordor is going to have a much higher likeyhood of bumping into Mordorian troopd on random patrol than anywhere else.) Elrond THINKS Gandalf will probably stick with Frodo, but there are probably circumstances where even HE might break off (say if Sarumam comes up with a plan so dangerous that Gandalf needs to directly intervene to keep it from suceededing (basically what he does do, but happening while Gandalf is still accompanying an unbroken fellowship as opposed to one that no longer has a Frodo and Sam with it, and Gandalf still being the Gray) Plus Elronds seems to have some inklings that something might happen to Gandalf. So under those circumstances, Elrond would have to assume that Frodo might be entering Mordor guarded by only three hobbits one elf and one dwarf. Legolas and Gimli can safely be assumed to be competent fighters, but they aren't going to likely to be enough to deal with say the group being surrounded by an Orc platoon. Sam Merry and Pippin will certainly fight to the death to protect Frodo, but in this case "to the death" is likey to be very very soon, and not actually accomplish much vis a vis keeping Frodo safe. Under those circumstances sending Glorfindel as a sort of "backup" Gandalf would make a lot of sense. He is going to be at least decent guide, especially if Elrond thinks far enough ahead to send him a long with a COPY of the Map Frodo was shown (seriously, given how long the fellowiship was in Rivendell preparing, you'd think Elrond would have seen a copy got into thier hands (maybe he did, but he gave it to Gandalf or Aragorn). He's a master warrior, so probably can slaugter any roving orc patrols they are unlucky enough to bump into. And if worse comes to worse, and a Nazgul actually does spot Frodo, Glorfindel is probably the only person in Middle Earth (again except maybe Gandalf) who can go toe-to-toe with a Ringwraith and have a decent chance of actually winning, or at least surviving.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Interesting point by Boromir about Elladan and Elrohir being chosen by Elrond.
I had always assumed one of them would have been Glorfindel (and Tauriel? )
--- ducks bricks---

But assume you're an Elrond advisor and he's unsure. Who would you pick.
What about another dwarf and a junior Rivendell elf so both northern elf
polities are representative. Dwarfs would be useful if some of the company tried
to get through to Mordor (and I believe Aragorn was going to include Gimli
in the core company to get to Mount Doom.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Actually by that sort of thinking, it almost makes no sense NOT to have Glorfindel going, limit of nine or no. Elrond KNOWS Aragorn and Boromir are planning to not go with the fellowship into Mordor, but head for Minas Tirith. In otherwords, two of the objectively best fighters in the group are planning to leave around when the trip will be most likely to get into the point where being spotted and having to fight is probably most likey (i.e. even if Sauron isn't expecting anyone to do what the fellowship is doing, Mordor is going to have a much higher likeyhood of bumping into Mordorian troopd on random patrol than anywhere else.) Elrond THINKS Gandalf will probably stick with Frodo, but there are probably circumstances where even HE might break off (say if Sarumam comes up with a plan so dangerous that Gandalf needs to directly intervene to keep it from suceededing (basically what he does do, but happening while Gandalf is still accompanying an unbroken fellowship as opposed to one that no longer has a Frodo and Sam with it, and Gandalf still being the Gray) Plus Elronds seems to have some inklings that something might happen to Gandalf. So under those circumstances, Elrond would have to assume that Frodo might be entering Mordor guarded by only three hobbits one elf and one dwarf. Legolas and Gimli can safely be assumed to be competent fighters, but they aren't going to likely to be enough to deal with say the group being surrounded by an Orc platoon. Sam Merry and Pippin will certainly fight to the death to protect Frodo, but in this case "to the death" is likey to be very very soon, and not actually accomplish much vis a vis keeping Frodo safe. Under those circumstances sending Glorfindel as a sort of "backup" Gandalf would make a lot of sense. He is going to be at least decent guide, especially if Elrond thinks far enough ahead to send him a long with a COPY of the Map Frodo was shown (seriously, given how long the fellowiship was in Rivendell preparing, you'd think Elrond would have seen a copy got into thier hands (maybe he did, but he gave it to Gandalf or Aragorn). He's a master warrior, so probably can slaugter any roving orc patrols they are unlucky enough to bump into. And if worse comes to worse, and a Nazgul actually does spot Frodo, Glorfindel is probably the only person in Middle Earth (again except maybe Gandalf) who can go toe-to-toe with a Ringwraith and have a decent chance of actually winning, or at least surviving.

If it had happened that in Mordor the group is "surrounded by an Orc platoon", they would have been almost certainly doomed anyway - the disclosure was a sentence. And, I am sure, there was nothing that Saruman could do to make Gandalf abandon Frodo, unless he (Saruman) goes forward and fights Gandalf in person.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yeah why didn't they go? What was the reasoning here, wasn't it something like, and I'm paraphrasing, "taking the Ring to the Fire is a hopeless mission, and since it's (next to) impossible the small may just as well attempt it as the great"? Which is pretty daft if you ask me. Like if Rafael Nadal appears on a local clay-court and he wants a challenger, and you respond by sending out a limp and near-sighted senior citizen instead of the local tennis champion since neither is likely to win. Objectively Merry and Pippin are quite useless to the Quest, and when Gandalf insists that they are to come too the only way it makes sense if by some divine premonition. Gandalf intended to accompany Frodo into Mordor if I remember correctly, and he would've been a great guide. Aragorn would too, but intended to go to Minas Tirith, but when Gandalf fell he was going to take on that responsibility. But really, wouldn't it make sense to bring some more people who knew their stuff, as a back-up? Pippin couldn't find Gondor on a map for christ's sake.

Gandlaf was not planning to play tennis with Rafa. ))) He was not supposed to be involved in a personal combat with Sauron.

What I would say - if the competition is not in playing tennis but in finding a needle on the court it could happen than a kid can be more efficient than Nadal. And if the quest is to recall all great champions of the past, n that case "a limp and near-sighted senior citizen" can be much better.

Originally Posted by skip spence

Why, does Sauron have some kind of spot-the-Elf special ability?

Yes, these guys were able to feel "the presence of the Force" Gandalf was actually extremely good at keeping low profile.

[Inziladun]

I think the composition of the Nine Walkers, after Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, Boromir, and Aragorn, was largely a product of Elrond's recognition of the "chance" that had brought so many disparate persons to Rivendell at once.
He said during the Council that he had not "called" its members, but that they were intended to find a solution to the problem of the Ring anyway. Seeing that an Elf from Mirkwood and a Lonely Mountain Dwarf were willing and available to go with the Ring, would have seemed too serendipitous to ignore, especially coupled with Gandalf's insight that an elven-lord like Glorfindel would make little difference.

[HerenIstarion]

Since we are freely speculating, let me add some of my own

Sending Glorfindel along (though it might have been considered by JRRT as the suggestion is hinted at during the council) would tie the story to much with the Legendarium - and yet Tolkien was writing a new story - descended/coming/arising/ from tied to/hanging on the past, but not being the past in itself, if you follow my meaning) would have been a breach of certain general canvas:

Mark like all great characters from the past are passive - Cirdan, Elrond, Galadriel (the latter, admittedly, 'striving with the Enemy in her mind' (excuse lopsided citing, I'm on the go, citing from memory) - but they don't move about much - their purpose is just that - to tie the current events with those of first and second ages

They are all tied to certain places too (resembling Tom Bombadil in that respect) - not going far from their own boundaries that they themselves have set (well, Aragorn-Arwen and Elrond at the wedding is another story). When Glorfindel roams whereabouts of Rivendell in search of Ring-Bearer and the fellowship, he's actually doing as much as all them 'old chars' do - 'beating the bounds', or going just little beyond the boundaries of their own realm

Whilst sending Glorfindel along would turn the story into something resembling the first age (and also diminish respective roles of all others. + I don't thikn Gimli-Glorfindel friendship line would work as good as Legolas-Gimli line did. For dwarf-elf controversy, goes back to first age too, with Thingol's murder and silmarils, but immediate connotation here is restoration of friendship between Erebor and the Forest because of what Thranduil did to Thorin and Co (and of course Gloin Gimli's father)

One might argue here that Gandalf, being Olorin, is first age person too (Saruman, Radagast and Sauron too, for that matter)

But Sauron acts just like the other 'oldhands' - sitting in his realm, just being the baddie and the bully he's sending his chaps along to conquer (but himself, he's tied there too - striving with Galadriel in mind (the other side of the same coin) and roaming the world with his Eye)

Whilst Istari are cardinally new thing - old spirits though they may be, they are incarnate

I hope I'm coherent enough, and did not tire you with this stream of consciousness - as I'm almost thinking aloud, writing it down as it comes to my mind

Cheers

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

If it had happened that in Mordor the group is "surrounded by an Orc platoon", they would have been almost certainly doomed anyway - the disclosure was a sentence. And, I am sure, there was nothing that Saruman could do to make Gandalf abandon Frodo, unless he (Saruman) goes forward and fights Gandalf in person.

I'm not so sure of that, at least, I'm not so sure there would not come situations to make Gandalf be willing to leave at least temporarily, like he did in the Hobbit. If Saruman was left completely unopposed, it is likely that his plan would have suceeded. Theoden would have probably been dead or impotent, Eomer would likey have been caught and excuted, Grima would be married to Eowyn and probably in charge of Rohan meaning Saruman would be in charge), Fangorn would probably be leveled and the massacred (they were the turning point in the assault, but would they have done so well had they had to try and take down Isengard entirely on thier own, especially or even if Rohan was on Saruman's side. And that's assuming that, in the absence of Merry and Pippen the Ent Moot would even have worked). No Rohan, no help for Minas Tirith, (including no Dead men of Dunharrow, no Gandalf to buy time agaist the WK and no Eowyn to slay him, so the siege would likey have suceeded. Gandalf maybe believe that his missing will not have failed if anything remains intact, but when faced with the likelyhood of that "anything" basically consisting of the Shire and Bree (if that) might give even him pause.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think that there is a bit too much emphasis in the discussion on Sauron's ability to "sense" various personages, which strikes me as very Movieverse. Remove the Irritable Lighthouse and go back to Sauron as the Lord of Barad-dur, aware of the world beyond his presence only via his spies and servants, and the dubious utility of the Palantir*, and the notion goes away.

In Tolkien's full synoptic Chronology, which hopefully will see print in the not too distant future, it's clear how blind and groping Sauron really was, and how limited to fairly conventional means of intelligence-gathering (e.g., T calculated the distance from Moria to Barad-dur and how long it would take messenger-birds to traverse it, and how long Orc-runners would take to reach Isengard).


*Yes, a Palantir could see anywhere in Middle-earth one wanted. But first one had to know where to look. For all of the US' spy satellites and drones, it took ten years to spot the only six-foot-four Arab in the AfPak border region.......

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I think that there is a bit too much emphasis in the discussion on Sauron's ability to "sense" various personages, which strikes me as very Movieverse. Remove the Irritable Lighthouse and go back to Sauron as the Lord of Barad-dur, aware of the world beyond his presence only via his spies and servants, and the dubious utility of the Palantir*, and the notion goes away.

The Witch-king would have been much more likely to recognize Glorfindel than Sauron, as one would think he did when the Black Riders were driven into the Ford of Bruinen. And you know, maybe that was another strike against Glorfindel being included in the Fellowship. If Glorfindel had been seen or otherwise discerned as associated with the Nine Walkers, wouldn't that have been a clear indication the Ring was also there?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Witch-king would have been much more likely to recognize Glorfindel than Sauron, as one would think he did when the Black Riders were driven into the Ford of Bruinen. And you know, maybe that was another strike against Glorfindel being included in the Fellowship.

But only if he saw him. It's not like Glorfindel radiated some sort of Arda-wide homing beacon! Moreover, any Wraith would have, if it saw a High-elf of Valinor, immediately recognized him as an enemy and a threat even if not as a particular individual (and likely withdrawn, as Khamul did from Gildor's party).

If Glorfindel had been seen or otherwise discerned as associated with the Nine Walkers, wouldn't that have been a clear indication the Ring was also there?

Not necessarily: Glorfindel, I'm sure, was known as one of the chief foes of Sauron and might be expected to engage in scouting missions (as he in fact did in the search for Gandalf). Moreover, we see from the Galdor episode that the presence of High-elves tended to confuse Ringwraiths' senses and actually mask the Ring's "signal."

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Glorfindel, I'm sure, was known as one of the chief foes of Sauron and might be expected to engage in scouting missions (as he in fact did in the search for Gandalf). Moreover, we see from the Galdor episode that the presence of High-elves tended to confuse Ringwraiths' senses and actually mask the Ring's "signal."

Since the last sighting of Glorfindel "in the field" had him in the presence of the Ring, it would be a reasonable assumption that finding him in a party containing Hobbits would be a red flag that the Ring was with the Fellowship.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Gandlaf was not planning to play tennis with Rafa. ))) He was not supposed to be involved in a personal combat with Sauron.

What I would say - if the competition is not in playing tennis but in finding a needle on the court it could happen than a kid can be more efficient than Nadal. And if the quest is to recall all great champions of the past, n that case "a limp and near-sighted senior citizen" can be much better.

Heh, no they weren't playing tennis unfortunately, I bet Glorfy would kick Sauron's hiney on the centre court! Okay the metaphor was inept perhaps, but still, what exactly would Merry and Pippin be expected to contribute with, apart from bourgeois chit-chat?

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Yes, these guys were able to feel "the presence of the Force" Gandalf was actually extremely good at keeping low profile.

Mm much like WCH I think too much is made of this sensing the presence of, you know, po-wah. Sure, Gandalf and the Balrog could sense each other in Moria but only (as I remember it) when they had just a door between them and when they were using their magic in direct conflict.

Speaking of Elf lords and Sauron, there is the event when Felagund was captured. Together with Beren and his companions they traveled up the vale of Sirion hoping to get past Tol-in-Gaurhoth on their way to Angband. Sporting the gear of slain orcs and also the faces of them by courtesy of Felagund's magic they got quite far but Sauron grew suspicious and waylaid them when they did not stop to report their deeds as all servants of Morgoth were ordered to do. So here we have a great Elf-lord trying to sneak past Sauron and although he is caught it's by rather mundane means, not by Sauron 'sensing a disturbance in the force'. And Felagund's magic tricks seems to come very much in handy. I bet Glorfy could do some pretty nifty stuff too.

[Arathorn111]

WOW! This thread has exploded since I last checked on it, and I love it!


Skip sense (and others):

Well to be honest the ability of Sauron of spoting great powers is something I've gotten from reading to many posts here on the barrows, and I thought that my post would get slaughtered if I didnät include this.


Tuor in Gondolin:

Then why not include a representative of the elves of Rivendell?


Thank you all for keeping the discussion alive!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Arathorn111

Skip sense

We've been saying that about Skip for years.

[Arathorn111]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

We've been saying that about Skip for years.

Haha, I didn't even reflect over it.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I'm not so sure there would not come situations to make Gandalf be willing to leave at least temporarily, like he did in the Hobbit. If Saruman was left completely unopposed, it is likely that his plan would have suceeded. Theoden would have probably been dead or impotent, Eomer would likey have been caught and excuted, Grima would be married to Eowyn and probably in charge of Rohan meaning Saruman would be in charge), Fangorn would probably be leveled and the massacred (they were the turning point in the assault, but would they have done so well had they had to try and take down Isengard entirely on thier own, especially or even if Rohan was on Saruman's side. And that's assuming that, in the absence of Merry and Pippen the Ent Moot would even have worked). No Rohan, no help for Minas Tirith, (including no Dead men of Dunharrow, no Gandalf to buy time agaist the WK and no Eowyn to slay him, so the siege would likey have suceeded. Gandalf maybe believe that his missing will not have failed if anything remains intact, but when faced with the likelyhood of that "anything" basically consisting of the Shire and Bree (if that) might give even him pause.

I am also not sure. However, there was a significant difference between The Hobbit affair and the War Of the Rings. The re-establishment of the Kingdom Under the Mountain, whatever the importance could be, was a sub-plot in Gandalf's schemes while the fight against Sauron was his major preoccupation. When the White Council decided to wage an open war on Dol Gudur, Gandalf made his choice according to his priorities.

The quest of the Fellowship was a different matter: if the Fellowship had failed the victory over Izengard wouldn't have had any significance. As soon as the mission was accomplished, Sauron forces would have dispersed and it seems that a combined effort of Rivendell, Loth-Lorien, Farngorn, Dunedain rangers and remains of Gondor and Rohan would have been sufficient to crush Saruman's army.

Such a result would have come with greater loss but no-one could actually foresee the course of events, that's for sure

[Alfirin]

Could Gandalf have even assumed that? Eliminating Sauron would certainly have taken the commander out of the equasion and probably the generals (i.e. the Ringwraiths) But everyone else in the army of Mordor is not so tied to the Ring or Sauron that His death would ipso facto gurantee thier disbandment. I imagine that, free from Sauron's control , at least some of the Orc legions (especially those already in the west and fighting), would have been recruited by Saruman into his forces with simple offers of continued opportunities to fight loot and pillage. As for your crushing alliance, it might not have been able to muster that group. Fangorn's Ents might simply not be there anymore (Given Saruman's reletless industrialization, the added time free and at large that he would have had while Ganadalf was still on the quest, Fangorn would probably have already been clearcut and the number of living Ents and Huorns near or at zero. Rohan might largely be on Saruman's SIDE if Grima is now King of the Mark (a lot of people might stick to him simply because of that, loyalty to the king overriding any personal feelings) And Gondor might be down to the point where the number of warriors they could muster would be about the same as the amount Arnor could (i.e. about the same number as the rangers) with no guiding force. Denethor would probably be dead in such a circumstance as would Boromir, Faramir AND Aragorn (Aragorn once he got to Minas Tirith, would probably stay and fight as opposed to fleeing even when the situation got hopeless, so the odds of having him to rally behind are remote. Actually since the Rangers would probably have come to Minas Tirith by that point as well, they might all be slaugtered too. The Dead Men could not have come, because Aragorn would probably not have been able to get to them (since in that situation, Dunharrow would be in ENEMY (Rohan) hands. So it would basically boil down to Rivendell and Lothlorien against a Saruman army that might be many times the size it was in LOTR, with massive amounts of extra machinery and explosives (imagine what would have happened had Saruman marched on Minas Tirith too, and simply blasted the walls apart.) I'm not saying you are wrong when you think that Gandalf would say "destroying the ring trumps all" I'm just saying you may be underestimating how much damage Saruman might have been able to accomplish had he been allowed to go unchecked, and overestimating how much of a resistance force would be left to deal with him under that set of circumstances.
Gandalf may have known this. After all when he comes back, he decides that he should stay and help with the defence of the West, as opposed to, say, rounding up the fellowship and heading to Mordor in hope of being able to find Frodo and Sam.
All I am saying is, in some ways, it doesn't make sense for Elrond not to include Glorfindel as Backup, and it's a little odd Gandalf doesn't want him, since having him there would allow Gandalf to not have to make that decision (Glorfy would mean Gandalf would have the option of playing like the hobbit, moving from one to the other as he felt was important, since Glorfy could keep thme safe in Gandalf's absence.

[Zigûr]

In The Return of the Shadow we can see that at several points Professor Tolkien intended Glorfindel to be a member of the Fellowship only to ultimately reject his inclusion: "No Glorfindel" being the abrupt note in one of his planning sections. I feel very certain some explanation was given for this in the notes but I cannot find it. Perhaps I imagined it.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

In The Return of the Shadow we can see that at several points Professor Tolkien intended Glorfindel to be a member of the Fellowship only to ultimately reject his inclusion: "No Glorfindel" being the abrupt note in one of his planning sections. I feel very certain some explanation was given for this in the notes but I cannot find it. Perhaps I imagined it.

I found the references you note, as well as looking at all mentions of Glorfindel in the four HOME volumes concerning LOTR. I didn't see any sort of explanation for the change either, but it appears that the next idea for the Fellowship had them all being Hobbits, so maybe that gave the Professor pause to consider other ideas.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Eliminating Sauron would certainly have taken the commander out of the equasion and probably the generals (i.e. the Ringwraiths) But everyone else in the army of Mordor is not so tied to the Ring or Sauron that His death would ipso facto gurantee thier disbandment. I imagine that, free from Sauron's control , at least some of the Orc legions (especially those already in the west and fighting), would have been recruited by Saruman into his forces with simple offers of continued opportunities to fight loot and pillage.

It seems from the book that many of the orcs wanted to desert and live for the sake of there own pleasure. The will of Sauron and the fear of Nazgul was the main binding force behind there armies. Some formations could probably have been hired by Saruman but had he considerable powers over orcs he had not produced, he would probably have defeated Sauron earlier on.

It is extremely difficult to estimate the forces in the case of alternative story. Just if we look at Farngorn - seeing the devastation made Ents to go on war. Though Pipin's intervention help it happened earlier, it would have happened anyway and likely before the most of Hurons were dead. And let me remind that it were Hurons, not Ents who slaughtered Saruman's army at Helm's Deep and later destroyed the fortifications of Izengard.