Not just a 'tender of beasts' : Radagast's connection to Slavic Mythology - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galadriel55 · 11-08-2013, 06:02 PM

Ooooo, why did I not see this thread earlier? I love mythologies!

Radegast/Radigost is not as well-known as other Slavonic gods, and it's very difficult to find any good sources on Slavonic mythology in general because much of it was destroyed early on in history. But here is what I can say about Radegast on behalf of Russia:

Firstly, as was mentioned above, his name can be dissected into rad+gost' - "joy"+"guest". This would imply a welcome for travelers and etc.

However, apparently his name once was Rizvoditz, which to me kind of sounds like "splitter", "separater" (from razvod). According to the source, his name represents quarrel, strife. This source also says that his later name, Radegast, is derived from "ratniy gost'" - Warrior guest, and that overall he is both the god of war and the protector of peaceful guests.

Yet other sources say that Radegast stands for "guests of councils", "head of councils". I do not see a resemblance in any of the names that these sources give, but they just might be too Western Slavonic for me to analyze with certainty.

And yet others describe him as the god that judges deceased souls. Go figure.

So how much of this is can be related to Radagast? Not that much. And while I don't think Tolkien drew that much from Slavonic sources, Radegast is a very Western Slavonic god, and his "cult" was geographically close to modern day Germany, so it is very possible that Germanic languages preserve some reference to him.

jallanite · 11-09-2013, 12:00 AM

I likewise did not find much about the Slavic god Radagast in the essay “Obscure Languages” in my Introduction to Elvish, on page 175. What I wrote was only:

Early chroniclers speak of a Slavic god named Radegást ( Радега́ст ). His temple was at Rethra (earlier Radogoszsz) made of wood, and rested on animal horns. Its outside was covered with figures of the gods. Within were kept special insignia and a stabled horse. Some believe that the reference is to a different god altogether and that the name of the town has been erroneously applied to the god.

I no longer know the source of this information other than that I consulted more than a single book.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radegast_%28god%29 for further information about this god, of which little is known.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 11-09-2013, 05:10 AM

There is indeed very little known about Radegast. I have been doing a lot of research on that, because it's sort of my area of expertise, but there isn't really much to add besides what's been said here already. The connection between the god and the Wizard is a connection every person in my home country makes when they read about Radagast in the Hobbit/LotR, because his statue and former sacred spot on Mt. Radhošť is one of the sort of classic Czech historical/cultural spots (it's anyway the only known "real" Radegast-cult place, as far as I know). Radegast was probably manifested in different ways in different places, his cult is traceable into a few randomly isolated places in today western Russia, Czech Republic, and the Baltic countries.

The Czech version of Radegast, what we know of - mostly only from writings of Christian monks, much later than the cult itself actually bloomed, so the information again may be very much distorted or most of it not remembered anymore - is that he was supposed to have something to do with sun, harvest; possibly he was a solar deity. Or that is one theory.

The etymology G55 mentioned, with the meaning "council-guest" would actually be plausible in the Western Slavonic context, from rada (council) + host (guest), but it is a very, let's say, "fringe" interpretation. Also not certain why would the name of the god come from that in the first place.

Galadriel55 · 11-09-2013, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The Czech version of Radegast, what we know of - mostly only from writings of Christian monks, much later than the cult itself actually bloomed, so the information again may be very much distorted or most of it not remembered anymore - is that he was supposed to have something to do with sun, harvest; possibly he was a solar deity. Or that is one theory.

The whole Slavic "cult" is based on the sun. All the "major" gods are directly connected to it, and quite many of the minor gods have something to do with it. But the whole major/minor thing depends on the geographic location. Since Radegast was more prominent in the West, I would not be surprised if there was more emphasis on his connection to the sun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The etymology G55 mentioned, with the meaning "council-guest" would actually be plausible in the Western Slavonic context, from rada (council) + host (guest), but it is a very, let's say, "fringe" interpretation. Also not certain why would the name of the god come from that in the first place.

The source said that he was an invisible guest at all councils. His presense somehow affected the outcome, I suppose.

Inziladun · 11-09-2013, 05:34 PM

My knowledge of Slavic mythology is roughly equal to my ability to estimate the distance between earth and the Kuiper Belt beyond Pluto: pretty much nil.

However, Radagast the Brown's Valinorean name was Aiwendil, said to mean "lover of birds", so maybe his Mannish name was a simple counterpart, with no ulterior symbolism by Tolkien. I think it comes down to the question of which came first, the names or the character.

jallanite · 11-09-2013, 07:51 PM

Yes Aiwendil might mean the same as Radagast. Or it might not.

Olórin and other names ascribed to Gandalf do not all mean Elf with the Wand. Olórin is usually considered to be probably related to the Quenya word olos (pl. olori) ‘dream, vision’, this meaning being fully discussed by Christopher Tolkien in his treatment of his father’s essay on “The Istari” in Unfinished Tales.

Saruman appears to be Old English of Mercian form meaning searu, saru ‘skill, cunning, cunning device’ + mann ‘man’, derived from his original Quenya name Curumo, and also a translation of his Sindarin name Curunír, taken as a name of approximately the same meaning, from Sindarin curu ‘skill’ + -ndîr ‘-man’. See note 6 to the essay “The Istari” in Unfinished Tales, which oddly has no reference in the text in my edition.

In short, Tolkien gives no indication of what Radagast is supposed to mean anywhere and arguing by analogy with the names Gandalf (or Mithrandir) and Saruman leads nowhere.

Galin · 11-10-2013, 07:55 AM

JRRT once noted that in the tongue of Numenor of old, Radagast (it was said) meant 'tender of beasts', but in a late note 'Radagast is said to be a name deriving from the Men of the Vales of Anduin, 'not now clearly interpretable'.

My guess is that the meaning of the Quenya name Aiwendil was not in play in both cases. And sometimes it can be difficult to say if a name is intended to be a substitution or not: Gandalf and Saruman are substitutions, and Incánus might seem to be another substitution by Tolkien as the fictive translator for example, but in another late note Tolkien at least considers a possible Quenya derivation, as he had considered earlier as well.

11-08-2013, 06:02 PM	#1
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,495	Ooooo, why did I not see this thread earlier? I love mythologies! Radegast/Radigost is not as well-known as other Slavonic gods, and it's very difficult to find any good sources on Slavonic mythology in general because much of it was destroyed early on in history. But here is what I can say about Radegast on behalf of Russia: Firstly, as was mentioned above, his name can be dissected into rad+gost' - "joy"+"guest". This would imply a welcome for travelers and etc. However, apparently his name once was Rizvoditz, which to me kind of sounds like "splitter", "separater" (from razvod). According to the source, his name represents quarrel, strife. This source also says that his later name, Radegast, is derived from "ratniy gost'" - Warrior guest, and that overall he is both the god of war and the protector of peaceful guests. Yet other sources say that Radegast stands for "guests of councils", "head of councils". I do not see a resemblance in any of the names that these sources give, but they just might be too Western Slavonic for me to analyze with certainty. And yet others describe him as the god that judges deceased souls. Go figure. So how much of this is can be related to Radagast? Not that much. And while I don't think Tolkien drew that much from Slavonic sources, Radegast is a very Western Slavonic god, and his "cult" was geographically close to modern day Germany, so it is very possible that Germanic languages preserve some reference to him. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

11-09-2013, 12:00 AM	#2
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	I likewise did not find much about the Slavic god Radagast in the essay “Obscure Languages” in my Introduction to Elvish, on page 175. What I wrote was only: Early chroniclers speak of a Slavic god named Radegást ( Радега́ст ). His temple was at Rethra (earlier Radogoszsz) made of wood, and rested on animal horns. Its outside was covered with figures of the gods. Within were kept special insignia and a stabled horse. Some believe that the reference is to a different god altogether and that the name of the town has been erroneously applied to the god. I no longer know the source of this information other than that I consulted more than a single book. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radegast_%28god%29 for further information about this god, of which little is known.

11-09-2013, 05:10 AM	#3
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	There is indeed very little known about Radegast. I have been doing a lot of research on that, because it's sort of my area of expertise, but there isn't really much to add besides what's been said here already. The connection between the god and the Wizard is a connection every person in my home country makes when they read about Radagast in the Hobbit/LotR, because his statue and former sacred spot on Mt. Radhošť is one of the sort of classic Czech historical/cultural spots (it's anyway the only known "real" Radegast-cult place, as far as I know). Radegast was probably manifested in different ways in different places, his cult is traceable into a few randomly isolated places in today western Russia, Czech Republic, and the Baltic countries. The Czech version of Radegast, what we know of - mostly only from writings of Christian monks, much later than the cult itself actually bloomed, so the information again may be very much distorted or most of it not remembered anymore - is that he was supposed to have something to do with sun, harvest; possibly he was a solar deity. Or that is one theory. The etymology G55 mentioned, with the meaning "council-guest" would actually be plausible in the Western Slavonic context, from rada (council) + host (guest), but it is a very, let's say, "fringe" interpretation. Also not certain why would the name of the god come from that in the first place. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

11-09-2013, 05:34 PM	#5
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,039	My knowledge of Slavic mythology is roughly equal to my ability to estimate the distance between earth and the Kuiper Belt beyond Pluto: pretty much nil. However, Radagast the Brown's Valinorean name was Aiwendil, said to mean "lover of birds", so maybe his Mannish name was a simple counterpart, with no ulterior symbolism by Tolkien. I think it comes down to the question of which came first, the names or the character. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

11-09-2013, 07:51 PM	#6
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	Yes Aiwendil might mean the same as Radagast. Or it might not. Olórin and other names ascribed to Gandalf do not all mean Elf with the Wand. Olórin is usually considered to be probably related to the Quenya word olos (pl. olori) ‘dream, vision’, this meaning being fully discussed by Christopher Tolkien in his treatment of his father’s essay on “The Istari” in Unfinished Tales. Saruman appears to be Old English of Mercian form meaning searu, saru ‘skill, cunning, cunning device’ + mann ‘man’, derived from his original Quenya name Curumo, and also a translation of his Sindarin name Curunír, taken as a name of approximately the same meaning, from Sindarin curu ‘skill’ + -ndîr ‘-man’. See note 6 to the essay “The Istari” in Unfinished Tales, which oddly has no reference in the text in my edition. In short, Tolkien gives no indication of what Radagast is supposed to mean anywhere and arguing by analogy with the names Gandalf (or Mithrandir) and Saruman leads nowhere.

11-10-2013, 07:55 AM	#7
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	JRRT once noted that in the tongue of Numenor of old, Radagast (it was said) meant 'tender of beasts', but in a late note 'Radagast is said to be a name deriving from the Men of the Vales of Anduin, 'not now clearly interpretable'. My guess is that the meaning of the Quenya name Aiwendil was not in play in both cases. And sometimes it can be difficult to say if a name is intended to be a substitution or not: Gandalf and Saruman are substitutions, and Incánus might seem to be another substitution by Tolkien as the fictive translator for example, but in another late note Tolkien at least considers a possible Quenya derivation, as he had considered earlier as well.