Not just a 'tender of beasts' : Radagast's connection to Slavic Mythology - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Legate of Amon Lanc · 11-09-2013, 05:10 AM

There is indeed very little known about Radegast. I have been doing a lot of research on that, because it's sort of my area of expertise, but there isn't really much to add besides what's been said here already. The connection between the god and the Wizard is a connection every person in my home country makes when they read about Radagast in the Hobbit/LotR, because his statue and former sacred spot on Mt. Radhošť is one of the sort of classic Czech historical/cultural spots (it's anyway the only known "real" Radegast-cult place, as far as I know). Radegast was probably manifested in different ways in different places, his cult is traceable into a few randomly isolated places in today western Russia, Czech Republic, and the Baltic countries.

The Czech version of Radegast, what we know of - mostly only from writings of Christian monks, much later than the cult itself actually bloomed, so the information again may be very much distorted or most of it not remembered anymore - is that he was supposed to have something to do with sun, harvest; possibly he was a solar deity. Or that is one theory.

The etymology G55 mentioned, with the meaning "council-guest" would actually be plausible in the Western Slavonic context, from rada (council) + host (guest), but it is a very, let's say, "fringe" interpretation. Also not certain why would the name of the god come from that in the first place.

Galadriel55 · 11-09-2013, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The Czech version of Radegast, what we know of - mostly only from writings of Christian monks, much later than the cult itself actually bloomed, so the information again may be very much distorted or most of it not remembered anymore - is that he was supposed to have something to do with sun, harvest; possibly he was a solar deity. Or that is one theory.

The whole Slavic "cult" is based on the sun. All the "major" gods are directly connected to it, and quite many of the minor gods have something to do with it. But the whole major/minor thing depends on the geographic location. Since Radegast was more prominent in the West, I would not be surprised if there was more emphasis on his connection to the sun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The etymology G55 mentioned, with the meaning "council-guest" would actually be plausible in the Western Slavonic context, from rada (council) + host (guest), but it is a very, let's say, "fringe" interpretation. Also not certain why would the name of the god come from that in the first place.

The source said that he was an invisible guest at all councils. His presense somehow affected the outcome, I suppose.

Inziladun · 11-09-2013, 05:34 PM

My knowledge of Slavic mythology is roughly equal to my ability to estimate the distance between earth and the Kuiper Belt beyond Pluto: pretty much nil.

However, Radagast the Brown's Valinorean name was Aiwendil, said to mean "lover of birds", so maybe his Mannish name was a simple counterpart, with no ulterior symbolism by Tolkien. I think it comes down to the question of which came first, the names or the character.

jallanite · 11-09-2013, 07:51 PM

Yes Aiwendil might mean the same as Radagast. Or it might not.

Olórin and other names ascribed to Gandalf do not all mean Elf with the Wand. Olórin is usually considered to be probably related to the Quenya word olos (pl. olori) ‘dream, vision’, this meaning being fully discussed by Christopher Tolkien in his treatment of his father’s essay on “The Istari” in Unfinished Tales.

Saruman appears to be Old English of Mercian form meaning searu, saru ‘skill, cunning, cunning device’ + mann ‘man’, derived from his original Quenya name Curumo, and also a translation of his Sindarin name Curunír, taken as a name of approximately the same meaning, from Sindarin curu ‘skill’ + -ndîr ‘-man’. See note 6 to the essay “The Istari” in Unfinished Tales, which oddly has no reference in the text in my edition.

In short, Tolkien gives no indication of what Radagast is supposed to mean anywhere and arguing by analogy with the names Gandalf (or Mithrandir) and Saruman leads nowhere.

Galin · 11-10-2013, 07:55 AM

JRRT once noted that in the tongue of Numenor of old, Radagast (it was said) meant 'tender of beasts', but in a late note 'Radagast is said to be a name deriving from the Men of the Vales of Anduin, 'not now clearly interpretable'.

My guess is that the meaning of the Quenya name Aiwendil was not in play in both cases. And sometimes it can be difficult to say if a name is intended to be a substitution or not: Gandalf and Saruman are substitutions, and Incánus might seem to be another substitution by Tolkien as the fictive translator for example, but in another late note Tolkien at least considers a possible Quenya derivation, as he had considered earlier as well.

jallanite · 11-10-2013, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galin

JRRT once noted that in the tongue of Numenor of old, Radagast (it was said) meant 'tender of beasts', but in a late note 'Radagast is said to be a name deriving from the Men of the Vales of Anduin, 'not now clearly interpretable'.

I had forgotten that, till your mention reminded me.

Quote:

My guess is that the meaning of the Quenya name Aiwendil was not in play in both cases. And sometimes it can be difficult to say if a name is intended to be a substitution or not: Gandalf and Saruman are substitutions, and Incánus might seem to be another substitution by Tolkien as the fictive translator for example, but in another late note Tolkien at least considers a possible Quenya derivation, as he had considered earlier as well.

Apparently I was not clear in my intention. I see Gandalf and Mithrandir and other names given to Gandalf in various languages as unrelated to the Quenya name Olórin in meaning. While Saruman appears to be a translation of that wizard’s Quenya and Sindarin into Old English, presumably representing a form originally in true Rohirric.

Galin · 11-11-2013, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallanite

Apparently I was not clear in my intention. I see Gandalf and Mithrandir and other names given to Gandalf in various languages as unrelated to the Quenya name Olórin in meaning. While Saruman appears to be a translation of that wizard’s Quenya and Sindarin into Old English, presumably representing a form originally in true Rohirric.

Okay. I'm not sure why you think you were unclear above though.

In the part of my post that you quoted (for your response here), I simply made a guess about the meaning of Aiwendil being in play or not, and next I made a new point about being able to certainly detect a 'translation' in all cases, giving Incanus as an example (Gandalf and Saruman being cases of translations for comparison to Incanus).

:shrug:

11-09-2013, 05:10 AM	#1
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	There is indeed very little known about Radegast. I have been doing a lot of research on that, because it's sort of my area of expertise, but there isn't really much to add besides what's been said here already. The connection between the god and the Wizard is a connection every person in my home country makes when they read about Radagast in the Hobbit/LotR, because his statue and former sacred spot on Mt. Radhošť is one of the sort of classic Czech historical/cultural spots (it's anyway the only known "real" Radegast-cult place, as far as I know). Radegast was probably manifested in different ways in different places, his cult is traceable into a few randomly isolated places in today western Russia, Czech Republic, and the Baltic countries. The Czech version of Radegast, what we know of - mostly only from writings of Christian monks, much later than the cult itself actually bloomed, so the information again may be very much distorted or most of it not remembered anymore - is that he was supposed to have something to do with sun, harvest; possibly he was a solar deity. Or that is one theory. The etymology G55 mentioned, with the meaning "council-guest" would actually be plausible in the Western Slavonic context, from rada (council) + host (guest), but it is a very, let's say, "fringe" interpretation. Also not certain why would the name of the god come from that in the first place. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

11-09-2013, 05:34 PM	#3
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,039	My knowledge of Slavic mythology is roughly equal to my ability to estimate the distance between earth and the Kuiper Belt beyond Pluto: pretty much nil. However, Radagast the Brown's Valinorean name was Aiwendil, said to mean "lover of birds", so maybe his Mannish name was a simple counterpart, with no ulterior symbolism by Tolkien. I think it comes down to the question of which came first, the names or the character. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

11-09-2013, 07:51 PM	#4
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	Yes Aiwendil might mean the same as Radagast. Or it might not. Olórin and other names ascribed to Gandalf do not all mean Elf with the Wand. Olórin is usually considered to be probably related to the Quenya word olos (pl. olori) ‘dream, vision’, this meaning being fully discussed by Christopher Tolkien in his treatment of his father’s essay on “The Istari” in Unfinished Tales. Saruman appears to be Old English of Mercian form meaning searu, saru ‘skill, cunning, cunning device’ + mann ‘man’, derived from his original Quenya name Curumo, and also a translation of his Sindarin name Curunír, taken as a name of approximately the same meaning, from Sindarin curu ‘skill’ + -ndîr ‘-man’. See note 6 to the essay “The Istari” in Unfinished Tales, which oddly has no reference in the text in my edition. In short, Tolkien gives no indication of what Radagast is supposed to mean anywhere and arguing by analogy with the names Gandalf (or Mithrandir) and Saruman leads nowhere.

11-10-2013, 07:55 AM	#5
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	JRRT once noted that in the tongue of Numenor of old, Radagast (it was said) meant 'tender of beasts', but in a late note 'Radagast is said to be a name deriving from the Men of the Vales of Anduin, 'not now clearly interpretable'. My guess is that the meaning of the Quenya name Aiwendil was not in play in both cases. And sometimes it can be difficult to say if a name is intended to be a substitution or not: Gandalf and Saruman are substitutions, and Incánus might seem to be another substitution by Tolkien as the fictive translator for example, but in another late note Tolkien at least considers a possible Quenya derivation, as he had considered earlier as well.