Sauron and Istari

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I am not convinced, however, that their power was purely down to obligation, because it seems logical to me that had this been the case the fallen Saruman would have been far more personally dangerous than he actually was.

I thought, Saruman suffered a loss similar to Melkor in the War of Wrath - he spent himself on "dark arts", created a big army invested his will into it and lost it - thus he has lost his powers. As Valar's representative, Gandalf only fixed this, preventing Saruman from regaining his powers even slowly.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

In lieu of a definitive answer as to what Sauron thought about Gandalf denying the Ring I can only give you speculation, but that is all that is possible. We already have established that Sauron did not understand Gandalf. He must have assumed that his apparent failure to seize the Ring was either stupidity or part of some wider bid for power. What other answer is there?.

Think, Sauron might have suspected an intrigue. He might have thought, Gandalf wanted The Ring but after he had established it was The One, he had no chance to do it decently. Isildur's heir had more right to keep it. Sauron might have thought Gandalf is around as a scavenger who is going to wait till Aragorn is dead and pick up The Ring for himself.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

EDIT: It might also be worth recalling the remarks in Unfinished Tales that the bodies of the Wizards were "real and not feigned" and that "being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly." This sounds altogether different to me than the way in which the Ainur conventionally became incarnate. The bodies of the Wizards seem less like mere clothing than the they were among the Ainur when regularly incarnate.

I agree with that and suffering limits the ability to act. However, this is rather the limitation not on power itself but on the way it manifests itself and can be used.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I thought, Saruman suffered a loss similar to Melkor in the War of Wrath - he spent himself on "dark arts", created a big army invested his will into it and lost it - thus he has lost his powers. As Valar's representative, Gandalf only fixed this, preventing Saruman from regaining his powers even slowly.

I think what Gandalf did was strip Saruman of all authority to act as a representative of the Valar in Middle-earth: hence the symbolic breaking of Saruman's "badge", his staff, and the head of the staff falling at Gandalf's feet making him the new "head" of the Istari. That had the effect of greatly limiting Saruman's power to affect his environment. Gandalf said his one remaining "tooth" was his voice, and that might have been less a part of his "powers", and more akin to an innate gift with which he had been created.

[Andsigil]

No doubt there will be people here who will point out that I'm in error, but I've always felt that, since they were all Maiar, Sauron and the Istari knew each other from their days before coming to Middle Earth.

I never got the impression that the Maia population was so big that Sauron, for example hadn't met, or at least heard of Curumo (Saruman) or Olórin (Gandalf) while they were in Valinor for a few thousand years.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

No doubt there will be people here who will point out that I'm in error, but I've always felt that, since they were all Maiar, Sauron and the Istari knew each other from their days before coming to Middle Earth.

I never got the impression that the Maia population was so big that Sauron, for example hadn't met, or at least heard of Curumo (Saruman) or Olórin (Gandalf) while they were in Valinor for a few thousand years.

I totally agree with you on the matter that Sauron knew other Istari as Maiar in Valinor and as Ainur before, in the time of Music. The issue is that Sauron never happened to meet any of them in person in ME, where they adopted a humble identity of wizards and accepted names given by people's of ME, keeping their true origin, names and identity a grave secret. They unveiled it only to few wisest and Sauron was not one of the few.

Moreover, I am sure making Sauron aware of their nature was the last thing Istari desired. Sauron, on the other hand, must have feared the situation when The Ring comes into the hands of another Maia more than anything else (as he did not believe it could be destroyed).

Something tells me if Sauron had known Gandalf was a Maia in advance, he would not have just sent the Nine to retrieve it from 'Baggins' but, perhaps, went along with them himself. But if he came to such conclusion after his most terrible servants enjoyed Elrond's swimming class at Rivendell, it seems to me now, he could hardly do anything different.

[Zigûr]

The quotes we've examined here from the letters and so on, however, imply if not outright state that Sauron knew or at least accurately guessed that the Wizards had come from Aman, although he believed that they had been sent to exert Manwë's will over Middle-earth and not, as was actually the case, to assist Men and Elves in resisting him. He must surely have assumed they were Maiar; what else could they have conceivably been?

That being said, he must have observed that the Wizards were Maiar of a significantly lower stature than himself - he was one of the great among the Maiar, perhaps of comparable stature to, say, Melian, Eönwë, Ilmarë, Ossë and Uinen - albeit perhaps not quite as mighty as these particular examples, and certainly not by the end of the Third Age. In a footnote to letter 183 Professor Tolkien observes that Sauron was an angelic spirit "Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order." Were some Maiar scarcely more powerful than Elf-lords? Perhaps even, in some respects, weaker? This might explain why Sauron was not threatened by their presence if he understood their nature (if not their intentions or purpose).

I don't believe Sauron would have hunted the Ring personally in any event. He did almost nothing personally in the Third Age.

[Calacirya]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

The quotes we've examined here from the letters and so on, however, imply if not outright state that Sauron knew or at least accurately guessed that the Wizards had come from Aman, although he believed that they had been sent to exert Manwë's will over Middle-earth and not, as was actually the case, to assist Men and Elves in resisting him. He must surely have assumed they were Maiar; what else could they have conceivably been?

Excellent point. Through what I can tell, there aren't any specific writings acknowledging Sauron's knowing what the Istari are. Sauron knows who the Valar are, and wouldn't be threatened by even a high elf, so it absolutely only makes sense if he assumed (even if it's not stated) that the Istari must be Maiar.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Were some Maiar scarcely more powerful than Elf-lords? Perhaps even, in some respects, weaker? This might explain why Sauron was not threatened by their presence if he understood their nature (if not their intentions or purpose).

I wish this had been something that Tolkien capitalized on more. I would have like to have seen a more flushed out hierarchy of the Maiar. I highly doubt that any Maia would be weaker than an elf. But, I must concede, that it does not explicitly state whether or not they could be so speculation holds no true merit.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I don't believe Sauron would have hunted the Ring personally in any event. He did almost nothing personally in the Third Age.

And that was just hilarious, that got me laughing. Mostly because I agree. He had no reason to, either. He had the power and the resources to not have to hunt on his own. When the Nazgûl for all intents and purposes are nine versions of him that can be running around hunting, there's no reason for Sauron to be a moving target running across Middle Earth. Anywhere far from his stronghold would have quickly lost him access to his allies North and South of Mordor.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Calacirya

And that was just hilarious, that got me laughing. Mostly because I agree. He had no reason to, either. He had the power and the resources to not have to hunt on his own. When the Nazgûl for all intents and purposes are nine versions of him that can be running around hunting, there's no reason for Sauron to be a moving target running across Middle Earth. Anywhere far from his stronghold would have quickly lost him access to his allies North and South of Mordor.

I believe that there might be a combination of two main reasons for Sauron's operating through agents in the Third Age. The first was that, as you've stated, it was unnecessary most of the time, and that he needed to have central access to his entire empire - all roads ran to Mordor, as it were, from which he governed both his own realms and those of the lands of Men which he had enslaved.

Secondly, I would argue that Sauron never did anything in person in the Third Age out of fear for his personal safety. Every time Sauron confronted any of his enemies in a contest of arms or combat, he lost. Surely he would not risk his body, so long in the re-shaping after his death at the end of the Second Age, in personal confrontation with any of his enemies. If he did know that Gandalf was a Maia (and I would argue that he probably suspected something of the sort), he presumably considered the Nine, all together or at least several at once, to still be largely sufficient for handling the task. Perhaps the greatest mystery was who possessed Narya - I imagine he anticipated the Nine to have seized the Ring without ever having to approach Rivendell, at which point Elrond was able to put forth the power of an Elven-Ring with some assistance from Gandalf.

Incidentally, he seemingly interrogated Gollum in person, but questions of the whereabouts of the Ring would, I imagine, have been an entirely special case.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Calacirya

Sauron knows who the Valar are, and wouldn't be threatened by even a high elf, so it absolutely only makes sense if he assumed (even if it's not stated) that the Istari must be Maiar.

I think, Sauron would be threatened by anyone who was able to master The Ring, unless Sauron believed it was totally impossible. I don't think Gandalf and Galadriel were deceived by The Ring to the extant they were incapable of estimating their own potential.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

The quotes we've examined here from the letters and so on, however, imply if not outright state that Sauron knew or at least accurately guessed that the Wizards had come from Aman, although he believed that they had been sent to exert Manwë's will over Middle-earth and not, as was actually the case, to assist Men and Elves in resisting him. He must surely have assumed they were Maiar; what else could they have conceivably been?

That being said, he must have observed that the Wizards were Maiar of a significantly lower stature than himself - he was one of the great among the Maiar, perhaps of comparable stature to, say, Melian, Eönwë, Ilmarë, Ossë and Uinen - albeit perhaps not quite as mighty as these particular examples, and certainly not by the end of the Third Age. In a footnote to letter 183 Professor Tolkien observes that Sauron was an angelic spirit "Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order." Were some Maiar scarcely more powerful than Elf-lords? Perhaps even, in some respects, weaker? This might explain why Sauron was not threatened by their presence if he understood their nature (if not their intentions or purpose).

I don't believe Sauron would have hunted the Ring personally in any event. He did almost nothing personally in the Third Age.

If I recollect it correctly, somewhere in Silmarillion Tolkien says Sauron was the most powerful of all Maiar. I agree, that Sauron have wasted quite a lot of his power by the time of the War of the Ring but still was very potent.

We do not know much neither about orders of Maiar, nor about other orders of spirits but we know from Tolkien, they do exist (a typical point in discussions on Tom Bombadil). From the fact that Istari could get weary one (may be Sauron as well) could conclude they were not elves. They, however, did not look and live like previously known incarnate Maiar.

Finally, if Sauron came to conclusion that Istari were Maiar, it seems he seriously underestimated Gandalf. Thus we can ask if he established their identities as he knew them in Valinor. If he managed to do it, it means that even in Valinor Olorin masterfully kept low profile.

However, even Radagast could have become great and terrible, had he mastered The Ring. Imagine Oliphants ravaging Mordor, innumerable birds blinding orks and Radagast leading Ents and Hurns? Something from Avatar rather then Return of The King...

[Calacirya]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

If I recollect it correctly, somewhere in Silmarillion Tolkien says Sauron was the most powerful of all Maiar. I agree, that Sauron have wasted quite a lot of his power by the time of the War of the Ring but still was very potent.

I do not recall this being said at all. What you may be remembering is:

Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth

...which is from the Silmarillion, but does not imply that Sauron is the most powerful of the Maiar.

Never the less, you are correct in assuming that is powers would be diminished, especially if his powers worked in a similar way to Morgoth (the more evil he put forth, the less power was left to he himself).