Sauron and Istari

[Mithalwen]

Were not Saruman and Sauron both maia of Aule, originally which may have been a factor in their affinity- literally kindred spirits.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Were not Saruman and Sauron both maia of Aule, originally which may have been a factor in their affinity- literally kindred spirits.

Indeed. That may have been what led both to consider the use of the palantír at his disposal to further his own ends as well.

[Inziladun]

I think too that it's interesting to note a passage from the section The History of Galadriel and Celeborn from Unfinished Tales.
When first making contact with Celebrimbor and the Elves of Eregion in the Second Age, Sauron

posed as an emissary of the Valar, sent by them to Middle-earth ("thus anticipating the Istari") or ordered by them to remain there to give aid to the Elves.

Footnote 7 there goes on to add:

When [Sauron] came among the Noldor he adopted a specious fair form (a kind of simulated anticipation of the later Istari), and a fair name: Artano "high-smith," or Aulendil, meaning one who is devoted to the service of the Vala Aulë.

If indeed Sauron considered even then that the Valar had not forgotten Middle-earth, and might send someone to oppose him, it's notable that he chose for himself an attractive form rather than one appearing weak and old, supporting what Zigûr said about Sauron's underestimation of the Istari.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think the most important points have been stated - especially in the light of Zigur's quote, later reposted by Boro.

Maybe the only thing I would disagree on is that Saruman would have necessarily spilled everything out to Sauron. Yes, he would have, in the sense that Sauron had definitely strong will enough to pull the information about Istari from him, had he wanted to do so. I actually believe, in the light of everything we know about Sauron - and also in the light of the thing quoted by Zigur and Boro - that Sauron actually wasn't as interested in the Istari. There were a gazillion other, more important things to concern himself with (such as: can I attack Gondor now? Will its allies come? Does Saruman have the Ring? Who does have it, then? Any news from the North? Where are my Nazgul? Where are the Halflings? Where is the Shire? - going sort of retrospectively here...) than to learn who were the Istari.

I think Sauron would not engage in the debate "who are the Istari?" any more than he would in the debate "who is Tom Bombadil?". It probably wouldn't change anything for him. Either an enemy is a concern, or not. If some Maiar are stupid enough to go "cloaked" into Middle-Earth, they are probably not worth the attention, or: Isildur's heir, for instance, is much worse.

The only interesting thing that remains unanswered is actually what Mith has mentioned, regarding Sauron's and Saruman's original part in Aulë's "flock". Of course, for both of them, it had been a long time (for Sauron, a really long time), so maybe the connection to them was already quite hazy and clouded by the ages (literally) of experience in Arda. But it would be interesting if Sauron at some point wondered "hey, I wonder if that guy played during the first part of the Music next to me..." Then again, exactly those things had long time ago ceased to be of any importance to both of them...

[Sarumian]

I really grateful for this deep and witty answers. I also thought about Mouth Of Sauron's words to Gandalf but could not remember all these passages from other literature.

As Istari did not disclose their nature, it definitely took some time for Sauron to start considering their connection to the West. At some point upon arrival Istari had to reveal some extraordinary capacities - otherwise no-one would have paid any attention to old men; they had to demonstrate that they were wizards. At least worthy for fireworks and other special effects.

Although they could have come to Sauron's (or Nazguls') attention quite early, it was not before they had made some considerable headache to Sauron and his forces, he started connecting them to the West.

I wonder if Sauron was ever able to establish he was facing other Maiar. Don't think, Saruman was eager to let Sauron know, even when he came under Sauron's control. This control was not a kind of domination like Sauron enjoyed over Nazgul, for instance, and Saruman (in the book) continued his search for the Ring, his own game.

But if Sauron had known, would he have done something in a different way? For example, knowing there is a Maya in Gondor (who had just managed to have a Balrog killed), would Sauron have sent the host under Witch King to Minas Tirith? Or would he have rather waited for more reinforcements? Or the situation with the Ring seemed so pressing that Sauron, in fact, had little choice?

And if Sauron knew or suspected Gandalf was a Maia, what should he have thought on the fact that Gandalf did not claim the Ring that was in his proximity for so long, especially when he was safely beyond Sauron's reach?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

But if Sauron had known, would he have done something in a different way? For example, knowing there is a Maya in Gondor (who had just managed to have a Balrog killed), would Sauron have sent the host under Witch King to Minas Tirith? Or would he have rather waited for more reinforcements? Or the situation with the Ring seemed so pressing that Sauron, in fact, had little choice?

And if Sauron knew or suspected Gandalf was a Maia, what should he have thought on the fact that Gandalf did not claim the Ring that was in his proximity for so long, especially when he was safely beyond Sauron's reach?

First - I am actually not sure if he would have done something different. And second - maybe he even knew. But exactly the fact you are referring to (that Gandalf did not claim the Ring, even though he had had plenty of time for that) would perhaps have further convinced Sauron that whether the guys he is facing are Maiar or not, they are just weak fools. For example (this is pure speculation, but it is one possible way Sauron could have looked at the thing), Sauron could have told himself: okay, Gandalf is a Maia. However, he did not take the Ring. Instead, he possibly wants to give it to Isildur's heir. Why? Answer: obviously, because he feels himself too weak to claim it for himself! Ergo, he must be SO limited by his body, that he's somehow totally weak! Therefore, useless and not dangerous. End of debate, for Sauron. I think such kind of thinking is exactly what we know Sauron to be prone to.

So in general, I could imagine the fact of the Istari being Maiar not really having as much impact. Sauron was "weighing all things to a nicety on the scale of his malice", and what mattered was not what one was, but what one could have represented.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

...the fact you are referring to (that Gandalf did not claim the Ring, even though he had had plenty of time for that) would perhaps have further convinced Sauron that whether the guys he is facing are Maiar or not, they are just weak fools. For example (this is pure speculation, but it is one possible way Sauron could have looked at the thing), Sauron could have told himself: okay, Gandalf is a Maia. However, he did not take the Ring. Instead, he possibly wants to give it to Isildur's heir. Why? Answer: obviously, because he feels himself too weak to claim it for himself! Ergo, he must be SO limited by his body, that he's somehow totally weak! Therefore, useless and not dangerous. End of debate, for Sauron. I think such kind of thinking is exactly what we know Sauron to be prone to.

Well, I would argue that Maiar post a grave threat due to this particular reason - they have more potential to master The Ring than anyone else apart from, possibly, Galadriel. Sauron had already had an experience of what an embodied Maia could do - Melian. Even foolish and somewhat weak they could get an understanding of The Ring's potential quicker than anyone else and highly likely to find shortcuts to mastering it as they had dealt with that enormous power potentials back in Aman.

Sauron could hardly consider Gandalf weak after him killing a Balrog (or the Balrog was also weak and there was some contagious weakness that pursued Maiar in Middle Earth). He probably was very happy to find out that The Ring slipped between two Maiar killing each other (may be instigating the fight), and then Galadriel was (he might have thought this) deceived by Aragorn and Frodo. But later Gandalf The White, as we remember, struggled with Sauron (so they had a personal encounter!) sitting at Amon Hen. As I can remember, Gandalf was distracting Sauron from Frodo, thus he should have employed a formidable power to attract Sauron's attention and keep struggling for a long time.

It could, however, happened that Sauron was able to pull all confusing bits together only after Gandalf had appeared in Minas Tirith repelling Nazgul from Faramir's troops and it was really too late to make amendments.

I'd say that thinking someone weak would not take the Ring to himself is (in my opinion) going to contradict everything Sauron implied about the nature of the Ring and people. NO-ONE who sees it can resist its charm, that's how he designed it...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Sauron could hardly consider Gandalf weak after him killing a Balrog (or the Balrog was also weak and there was some contagious weakness that pursued Maiar in Middle Earth).

I think it's doubtful Sauron knew anything of the contest between Gandalf and the Balrog. The community of Orcs in Moria seems to be a pretty self-contained unit, not having much to do with outside events. There is no evidence the Balrog ever left Moria after it entered, and Sauron apparently never went into the Mines. From that, Sauron could have had only a passing knowledge of the Balrog, and maybe not even that; for if he knew it was there, would he not at some point tried to reach out to it?

Originally Posted by Sarumian

But later Gandalf The White, as we remember, struggled with Sauron (so they had a personal encounter!) sitting at Amon Hen. As I can remember, Gandalf was distracting Sauron from Frodo, thus he should have employed a formidable power to attract Sauron's attention and keep struggling for a long time.

Gandalf tells Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli that he "sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed".

But he later says, when discussing the recovered Palantír of Orthanc

'Maybe, I have been saved by this hobbit from a grave blunder. I had considered whether or not to probe this Stone myself to find its uses. Had I done so, I should have been revealed to him myself. I am not ready for such a trial, if indeed I shall ever be so. But even if I found the power to withdraw myself, it would be disastrous for him to see me yet--until the hour comes, when secrecy will avail no longer.'

TT The Palantír

That shows a clear difference between Gandalf's action in distracting Sauron from Frodo, and outright revealing himself. Sauron seemingly did not know Gandalf was behind the turning of his Eye from Frodo.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Sauron had already had an experience of what an embodied Maia could do - Melian. Even foolish and somewhat weak they could get an understanding of The Ring's potential quicker than anyone else and highly likely to find shortcuts to mastering it as they had dealt with that enormous power potentials back in Aman.

But an incarnate Maia was an altogether different proposition to one of the Istari, who purposely had the weaknesses and frailties of Men, and whose power was confined. Even Gandalf the White had very limited power compared to a normal incarnate Maia.

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I'd say that thinking someone weak would not take the Ring to himself is (in my opinion) going to contradict everything Sauron implied about the nature of the Ring and people. NO-ONE who sees it can resist its charm, that's how he designed it...

I think Sauron would have dismissed anyone who denied the Ring as a fool, not as someone of high moral stature. He was no longer capable of understanding the difference; he believed that everything everyone did was, in the same way as himself, for the sake of power.

We've already observed that Sauron believed (or had convinced himself) that Eru no longer cared about Arda, so he surely couldn't have recognised that Gandalf was by that stage present through the direct intervention of Eru himself. Surely he must not even have known that Gandalf had died and been resurrected.