Tolkien and Psychedelics

[Lalwendë]

Just a thought - when we are considering whether Men in Middle-earth 'worshipped' the Valar, it's probably important to note that the Maiar walked amongst them. They were living with their own 'gods' and I wonder whether that would somewhat remove the need or urge for actual 'worship'. I'm comfortable with Men offering thanks and respect, as there's evidence of, but not sure if they would actually 'worship'. I'm not even sure there's evidence they did.

And another thought on 'psychedelics' for the discussion - what about the time shifts experienced in Lorien? Something I have read is that certain experiences can mess with your concept of time. Why do the non-Elves in the Fellowship experience their time in Lorien as fleeting:

"Legolas stirred in his boat. 'Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; 'but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last.'

"'But the wearing is slow in Lórien,' said Frodo. 'The power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, in Caras Galadhon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.'"

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Just a thought - when we are considering whether Men in Middle-earth 'worshipped' the Valar, it's probably important to note that the Maiar walked amongst them. They were living with their own 'gods' and I wonder whether that would somewhat remove the need or urge for actual 'worship'. I'm comfortable with Men offering thanks and respect, as there's evidence of, but not sure if they would actually 'worship'. I'm not even sure there's evidence they did.

And another thought on 'psychedelics' for the discussion - what about the time shifts experienced in Lorien? Something I have read is that certain experiences can mess with your concept of time. Why do the non-Elves in the Fellowship experience their time in Lorien as fleeting:

That is Tolkien touching on the folklorish motifs of Faery, where a mortal misstep lands one in a different dimension (like Tir Na nOg) which moves outside of time. Such time shifts can be seen in everything from the Irish tale of Oisin to Washington Irving's Rip Van Winkle to Queen's song '39. Although guitarist Brian May, an astrophysicist in his spare time, was also inferring space travel in the song.

[Mithalwen]

I appreciate that the relationship of the Eldar and the ainur is different to contemporary religion, a matter of knowledge rather than faith, but surely "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" is a hymn of praise to Varda not just a song. So, in a small way, worship..

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I appreciate that the relationship of the Eldar and the ainur is different to contemporary religion, a matter of knowledge rather than faith, but surely "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" is a hymn of praise to Varda not just a song. So, in a small way, worship..

I don't think the matter of knowledge over belief is that clear cut in ME. The Eldar got their creation story from Rumil, who must have written it down for some purpose, even if only to inform the younger races. Gandalf, a Maiar, had to struggle to recall his memories as a disembodied being:

"... since we parted. I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten." The White Rider.

"...Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten..." The Window on the West.

If the reciting of hymns and rhymes is a natural means of reminding an embodied being (Hröa = body/consciousness) of their Fëa (spirit/subconscious) existance, then the Rings of Power can be seen as an artifical means of doing so. The Rings seem like psychedelic drugs; they break down the barrier between the Fëa and Hröa but take hold of their owners in a way which sounds like addiction. Like a lamp which burns faster than its wick can absorb or replenish its oil, they can leave their wearer/addict feeling 'stretched'.

Perhaps the Hobbit ability to withstand the One was because they didn't have addictive personalties. They certainly enjoyed the pleasures of pipe and ale but nowhere is there a nicotene patch or AA meeting mentioned.

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[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ardent

I don't think the matter of knowledge over belief is that clear cut in ME. The Eldar got their creation story from Rumil, who must have written it down for some purpose, even if only to inform the younger races.

Yet, even in the Third Age, there were still Elves who would have had personal knowledge of the Valar, apart from any written or oral traditions. Círdan, Galadriel, and probably Celeborn, to name a few. No others of any alien race could claim that by then.

And I doubt that Rúmil of Tirion had much thought of making any sort of records for the benefit of Men and Dwarves. Later generations of Elves I could see being more on his mind.

Originally Posted by Ardent

Perhaps the Hobbit ability to withstand the One was because they didn't have addictive personalties. They certainly enjoyed the pleasures of pipe and ale but nowhere is there a nicotene patch or AA meeting mentioned.

I've always thought the Hobbits' resistance to the call of power and dominance was more responsible. The Rings of Power called most loudly to those who had ambitions and the desire for power beyond their native abilities to accomplish them. Hobbits as a race seem to have had a greater sense of contentment with their lot than other denizens or Middle-earth, hence their lack of fighting. either among themselves or with other races.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I appreciate that the relationship of the Eldar and the ainur is different to contemporary religion, a matter of knowledge rather than faith, but surely "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" is a hymn of praise to Varda not just a song. So, in a small way, worship..

Surely to those of deep faith, it's also a matter of 'knowledge' that their God exists? A song of worship or reverence can just as well have no religious connotation - surely there are many examples of what I might call 'faithless wonder'? The thought that springs to mind is the starry eyed wonder of astrophysicists for the Universe - they are creatures of Science and usually reject religion completely but almost always display total wonderment and reverence for the cosmos...

...Richard Dawkins would probably beat me with one of his polemic books for that, but I have seen Prof Brian Cox so I beg to differ with him

Originally Posted by Ardent

I don't think the matter of knowledge over belief is that clear cut in ME. The Eldar got their creation story from Rumil, who must have written it down for some purpose, even if only to inform the younger races. Gandalf, a Maiar, had to struggle to recall his memories as a disembodied being:

"... since we parted. I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten." The White Rider.

"...Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten..." The Window on the West.

If the reciting of hymns and rhymes is a natural means of reminding an embodied being (Hröa = body/consciousness) of their Fëa (spirit/subconscious) existance, then the Rings of Power can be seen as an artifical means of doing so. The Rings seem like psychedelic drugs; they break down the barrier between the Fëa and Hröa but take hold of their owners in a way which sounds like addiction. Like a lamp which burns faster than its wick can absorb or replenish its oil, they can leave their wearer/addict feeling 'stretched'.

Hmmm, I like where this is going I think...What about how this would affect an Elf? How would it be different to how it might affect a Man or Hobbit?

And what about Dwarves? We know that the effects of the Rings on them were somewhat unexpected to Sauron. They changed them, perhaps made them greedy, but they did not come under his control - and we know they were created in a different way.

We certainly know that the One Ring had effects similar to a drug on the bearers, that analogy has been drawn many a time, and I think it's a fair one. Hobbits might be able to deal with beer and cigs, but Rings are another matter.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

That is Tolkien touching on the folklorish motifs of Faery, where a mortal misstep lands one in a different dimension (like Tir Na nOg) which moves outside of time. Such time shifts can be seen in everything from the Irish tale of Oisin to Washington Irving's Rip Van Winkle to Queen's song '39. Although guitarist Brian May, an astrophysicist in his spare time, was also inferring space travel in the song.

The Perilous Realm...often danger is linked to the timeslip in faery, which may go some way to explaining the fear that some have in Middle-earth for Lothlorien.

I keep thinking about Diviner's Sage, which apparently when chewed throws the user into a deep altered consciousness frequently involving significant time shifts, yet it is all over in five minutes.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

...And I doubt that Rúmil of Tirion had much thought of making any sort of records for the benefit of Men and Dwarves. Later generations of Elves I could see being more on his mind.

Which goes with my point that awareness of Eru among the Eldar was not a constant. There was a need for telling and hearing the tales of old: in poetry, song, tapestry, writing...

Originally Posted by Inziladun

...I've always thought the Hobbits' resistance to the call of power and dominance was more responsible. The Rings of Power called most loudly to those who had ambitions and the desire for power beyond their native abilities to accomplish them. Hobbits as a race seem to have had a greater sense of contentment with their lot than other denizens or Middle-earth, hence their lack of fighting. either among themselves or with other races.

I think Bandobras Took might put that rule to the test, but we seem to be saying the same thing: addiction is the result of losing one's contentment.
The proverb "contentment is wealth" is, like the Golden Rule, endemic to all systems of wisdom. One could say that the Hobbits represent 'every-man' and The Ring 'anything that threatens to become an addiction'.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

...Richard Dawkins would probably beat me with one of his polemic books for that, but I have seen Prof Brian Cox so I beg to differ with him



Hmmm, I like where this is going I think...What about how this would affect an Elf? How would it be different to how it might affect a Man or Hobbit?...

Well we have some notion of how the Ring would effect Galadriel: we would all be worshipping beauty and trembling in anticipation of the next Miss World contest. Aweful!
If Treebeard or Radagast got it they'd cover all the world with trees, the Green Party would be the only voting option and we'd be forced to live in eyries under the eye of the Eagles.
If a sheep farmer got it we'd have a new Enclosures Act and if a heroine addict got it we'd literally have opium for the masses. As for Mr Dawkins, I think we'd see another round of Social-Darwinism, only instead of the Ubermensch dictum "survival of the fittest" we'd have "survival of the most selfish" manifesting in consumer driven economies, self regulating banks...


As to the effect of the Ring on different races;
A human or other mortal using the Ring would consume their allotted 'life'. This would, logically, lead to the exhaustion of either the Fëa, Hröa or, what seems to me a better fit, the link between them. To extend the analogy of the lamp, their 'wick' would burn out.

Eldar and Maiar like Sauron would not have this limitation. Elrond had human, Eldar and Maiar blood but had chosen the fate (immortality) of the Eldar, so presumably he would have gone on like Sauron.

The resilience of the Dwarves may have been in part due to their long life span (relative to humans) and in part due to some aspect of their culture, perhaps their love of precious things which took precedence over love of power. They were, after all, the bankers of ME; not great dragon slayers but all to quick to lay claim to unguarded hoards.

The Hobbit resilience is similar to the Dwarves except they have more of a love of simple pleasures. This might be characterised (by the likes of Boromir) as stubbornness or lack of ambition. Like a lamp which refuses to shine too bright they have a cultural resistance to posessing things. I am thinking of the custom of mathomry, which Bilbo exhibits in giving away the Necklace of Girion as well as the Ring itself.

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