Racism and Tolkien.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I think it much more possible he was playing the role of "Internet troll", Ardent.. You must understand that the worst of Ulvenok's comments were deleted or edited by the mods- you're seeing what was left.

I did read them before deletion. I think Ulv's posts show many signs of immaturity and poor self expression, perhaps even autism given the tendancy to leap huge conclusions in a single bound. A cause for pity?

Anyway, you may be right and I'm not the one who was on the receiving end of the accusations made, so my sympathies to you on that score.

[Bêthberry]

To get back to the topic of this thread . . . .

"Racism" is a very slippery word and quite possibly in any discussion it ought to be defined or explained clearly and precisely. It might be helpful as well if specific examples are referred.

I offer this one quotation for people to discuss.

Originally Posted by Tolkien, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

And if the Rohirrim at their onset were thrice outnumbered by the Haradrim alone, soon their case became worse; for new strength came now streaming to the field out of Osgiliath. There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues. Some now hastened up behind the Rohirrim, others held westward to hold off the forces of Gondor and prevent their joining with Rohan.

The bolding is of course mine. How do we read this quotation?

[Morsul the Dark]

I always read the Black part as nothing more than a racial description I always thought of Harad as Africa... The half troll as very muscular and powerful.

I mean the red tongue part is a bit odd. It's not like he said they had big red lips now That would be racist.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

I always read the Black part as nothing more than a racial description I always thought of Harad as Africa... The half troll as very muscular and powerful.

I mean the red tongue part is a bit odd. It's not like he said they had big red lips now That would be racist.

Keep in mind that the events of LOTR are described from the point of view of rather insular Hobbits, so one might expect exaggeration of physical characteristics that appeared "alien" to them.

[Galadriel55]

I think that "racist" refers to using racial differences to assert that one race is worse than another. Tolkien does not do that. Saying that the Haradrim had black skin is like saying that I have brown hair. SO WHAT. Having them as the villains to me just means than in Middle Earth, the Haradrim, who happened to have dark skin, chose to (or were forced to) follow Sauron.

Eomer making fun of Dwarves' height is a bit racist, but he quickly learns to respect Gimli son of Gloin.

I would think that the Druedain were regarded as inferior by their neighbours, but that was fixed up rather nicely as well once the races came into closer contact with each other.

The Numenorians in their last years regarded themselves as superior to all nations, and look where that got them.

And, coming back to the Haradrim and the Easterlings, they are always portrayed as men, same as other men - mistaken, enemies, but still men. You get a sense of respect for them. Consider:

But the Men of Rhun and of Harad, Easterling and Southron, saw the ruin of their war and the great majesty and glory of the Captains of the West. And those that were deepest and longest in evil servitude, hating the West, and yet were men proud and bold, in their own turn now gathered themselves for a last stand of desperate battle. ~The Field of Cormallen

[Sam] wondered what his name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace... ~Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit

So, as I said before, I do not think that a mere physical description of a "so what?" nature merits an accusation of racism. Are there more specific instances of "racism" in the legendarium?

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

...And, coming back to the Haradrim and the Easterlings, they are always portrayed as men, same as other men - mistaken, enemies, but still men. You get a sense of respect for them...

In a footnote of Appendice A of LotR there is reference to at least some of the Haradrim in Umbar being allied with Gondor, but that they swayed in their loyalty between Gondor and Harad:
"...Umbar had been Numenorean land since days of old; but it was a stronghold of the King's Men, who were afterwards called the Black Numenoreans, corrupted by Sauron..."

I'm not sure whether 'Black' here refers to black skinned or metaphorically black, given the reference to Sauron's influence, but they are aknowledged as Numenorien.

There are several parallels from the real world here. The people of Kush (aka Nubia) were known as the Black Pharoes, and they swayed between being independant from or paying tribute to Egypt. They also at times ruled Egypt, so in this sense the analogy breaks down.

Another analogy for Harad and Umbar would be Carthage and it's relationship with the Berber tribes. Some Berbers faught for Carthage but switched loyalty (to Rome). Furthermore Carthage is famous for its war elephants, which initially caught the Romans unprepared.

The Cartaginians, Berbers and Egyptians were Semitic, the Nubians black, and they all fought with Caucasian Greeks and Romans. However I do not believe that recounting this fact is sufficient to count myself as racist. In Tolkien's case I would say that Middle Earth's clear distinctions between high and low/good and evil mean that we are not siding with the Good guys because they are white (or non-white) but because they really are Good.

If only the real world were so clear cut...