Racism and Tolkien.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I would define "racism" as the belief that one race is inherently inferior to another. I see no evidence of that on Tolkien's part, and it would seem the allegation stems from the manner in which certain characters and beings in his books are described. The "wild" Easterlings and dark-skinned Haradrim come to mind.

Contrary to a "racist" bent, it looks to me as if racially discriminatory views of the characters are punished. We see Saeros of Doriath, holding Men in contempt, being bested by T¨²rin. Thingol's denigration of the "uncouth race" of the Dwarves gets him killed.
Men are not immune, either. The N¨²men¨®rean Exiles of Gondor started a civil war over the reluctance of some to admit those of "alien" race from the Northmen to marry into their Line of Kings, and the realm was nearly destroyed because of it.
The shoddy treatment of the Rohirrim toward the "dark haired" Dunlendings came back to haunt them when the latter attacked them in their weakness, and later allied themselves with Saruman.

I think the whole thing is rubbish, but there are always people who find what they're looking for, whether it's actually present, or not.

Indeed it all is Totally rubbish! A race being inferior to other is nowhere seen in the books. Tolkien being a War Veteran could never write such stuff. Also, his writing suggests he believes in Love, Compassion, and the positive things our society needs. Racism isn't there, and your post explains it wonderfully.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Indeed it all is Totally rubbish! A race being inferior to other is nowhere seen in the books.

I wouldn't go that far. The elves and some men descended from Numenor knew something of 'The Art' while other races could only learn degraded forms of magic. Certain cultures had more attractive life styles and values than others.

I'd also note a great deal of segregation in Middle Earth. The men of Rohan and Gondor spoke ill of the Lady of the Golden Wood. Galadriel and Fangorn lived very near to one another's borders for Ages, yet never visited one another. King Aragorn forbade Big Folk from entering the Shire.

I believe one theme of LoTR is that the cultures were diverse enough that various free people might best live totally separated from one another, and yet each of these free people could recognize The Enemy when the time came. They didn't unite under a single government, but they contributed, each in their own way.

This trend for diverse cultures to live apart from one another, to recognize and honor borders while not encountering those living on the other side of the borders, is not the same as what we see in the real world. Still, it is worth noting.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I wouldn't go that far. The elves and some men descended from Numenor knew something of 'The Art' while other races could only learn degraded forms of magic. Certain cultures had more attractive life styles and values than others.

I'd also note a great deal of segregation in Middle Earth. The men of Rohan and Gondor spoke ill of the Lady of the Golden Wood. Galadriel and Fangorn lived very near to one another's borders for Ages, yet never visited one another. King Aragorn forbade Big Folk from entering the Shire.

I believe one theme of LoTR is that the cultures were diverse enough that various free people might best live totally separated from one another, and yet each of these free people could recognize The Enemy when the time came. They didn't unite under a single government, but they contributed, each in their own way.

This trend for diverse cultures to live apart from one another, to recognize and honor borders while not encountering those living on the other side of the borders, is not the same as what we see in the real world. Still, it is worth noting.

Tolkien believed strongly in true multiculturalism- as in, having a multiplicity of cultures in the world. He was strongly against 'multiculturalism' in its modern connotation, which to him meant mixing all the cultures together until everything was just the same flavorless blended monoculture the world over. "The bigger things get the smaller and duller or flatter the globe gets. It is getting to be all one blasted little provincial suburb. At any rate it ought to cut down travel. There will be nowhere to go."

[tom the eldest]

It is mentioned in the wikia that the upleasant appearance of the haradrim is based on european mongols.and also apparently the squint-eyed description of the evil men is an example of racism towards chines and japanese

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

And I've always interpreted Aragorn's Edict as being to keep men from SETTLING in the shire (not a wholesale "no man can ever even enter the border), lest they take it over from the somewhat less warlike hobbits. Hobbits are largely peaceful (even if they can be roused to defend themsevles) so let them live where they live in peace. It's to keep the hobbits safe, not to keep them isolated (it's not like Aragorn banned hobbits from leaving the shire, or required that they all move there.) It's sort of similar to what he did for the Woses of the Drudan forests; He's trying to make sure that no one molests them, or can come in with great masses of men and arms and take the territory from them.

Actually, the edict does indeed appear to totally bar Men from the Shire. From Appendix B The Tale of Years:

1427 ....King Elessar issues an edict that Men are not to enter the Shire.

And in Appendix A:

But [Aragorn II] does not enter [The Shire] and binds himself by the law that he has made, that none of the Big People shall pass its borders.

If Aragorn only meant a ban on settlers, surely he wouldn't have seen the harm in making a brief visit inside to give Sam his award.

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

It is mentioned in the wikia that the upleasant appearance of the haradrim is based on european mongols.and also apparently the squint-eyed description of the evil men is an example of racism towards chines and japanese

I wouldn't put a tremendous amount of stock in anything that starts with wiki, unless it's supported by other sources. Tolkien said in a Letter that Orcs were based on a very debased version of Mongols.

They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types.

Letters # 210

Orcs were the spiritual and physical product of long corruption by Morgoth and Sauron, and their appearance has no real-world equivalent. That Tolkien there added the qualifier "to Europeans" to me indicates that he did not think such a perception valid, but instead a regrettable consequence of unfamiliarity.

[demnation]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Actually, the edict does indeed appear to totally bar Men from the Shire. From Appendix B The Tale of Years:



And in Appendix A:



If Aragorn only meant a ban on settlers, surely he wouldn't have seen the harm in making a brief visit inside to give Sam his award.



I wouldn't put a tremendous amount of stock in anything that starts with wiki, unless it's supported by other sources. Tolkien said in a Letter that Orcs were based on a very debased version of Mongols.

Letters # 210

Orcs were the spiritual and physical product of long corruption by Morgoth and Sauron, and their appearance has no real-world equivalent. That Tolkien there added the qualifier "to Europeans" to me indicates that he did not think such a perception valid, but instead a regrettable consequence of unfamiliarity.

A knee jerk reaction to the "Orcs are debased Mongols" quote would lead one to cry "racism!" racism!" But a closer look reveals something a bit more ambiguous. Because he is not saying that Orcs are Mongols, or that Mongols are repulsive, but that the (fictional) Orcs are repulsive versions of Mogols. Still, it is about the closest Tolkien gets to saying anything that could be interpreted as blatantly racist. And the funny thing about his Letters is that they contain more evidence that he actually wasn't racist than they contain evidence that he was.

[Belegorn]

I could care less if Tolkien was racist. I do not think he was anyway, at least openly. If you're anti-racist to the point you want a racist to conform to your non-racist ways then don't support his work. I do think in LotR there are some Men who're obviously better than others. I do not believe everyone has to except what is the flavor of the century. My morals are more in line with the Hellenes before the Platonists turned the world upside down.

"it has always been the law that the weaker should be subject to the stronger." [Thucydides; History of the Peloponnesian War, ch. 3, p. 44]

What's next, the term "black Númenórean" is a racist title because it has black in it and they are opponents of Gondor and the good Dúnedain? They're both Dúnedain in any case, but since Tolkien decided to append "black" to a certain segment of them in a negative light, that's kind of racist right? So Tolkien is a racist and anti-feminist, what else, wrote some good books. Cool.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

It is mentioned in the wikia that the upleasant appearance of the haradrim is based on european mongols.and also apparently the squint-eyed description of the evil men is an example of racism towards chines and japanese

Well that is a misreading. I have never heard it used that way and the oxford and websters dictionaries do not include it as a definition. Squint-eyed denotes having a squint or generally looking suspicious NOT having almond shaped eyes. There is, alas, a derogatory term for this (slitty eyed). Ignorance of language by third parties does not make Tolkien a rascist. I wonder if the Wikia author has read the letters where he says how sorry he is he cannot claim any Jewish origins or warns his son that he will be shocked by South Africa's divisions...

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Well that is a misreading. I have never heard it used that way and the oxford and websters dictionaries do not include it as a definition. Squint-eyed denotes having a squint or generally looking suspicious NOT having almond shaped eyes. There is, alas, a derogatory term for this (slitty eyed). Ignorance of language by third parties does not make Tolkien a rascist. I wonder if the Wikia author has read the letters where he says how sorry he is he cannot claim any Jewish origins or warns his son that he will be shocked by South Africa's divisions...

Yeah,the wikia is edited by lots of people right?so maybe yeah,they were written by people who havent read the letter

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Yeah,the wikia is edited by lots of people right?so maybe yeah,they were written by people who havent read the letter

Is this the "Lord of the Rings Wiki"? In my view it's very untrustworthy, and mixes material from the books with ideas from the films, merchandise and a slew of other things that did not come from the mind of Professor Tolkien himself, along with a lot of fans making assumptions and reading into things and presenting them as fact. Tolkien Gateway is a lot more reliable in my opinion. As I said in another thread, the fact that "Lord of the Rings Wiki" forgets the "The" from the beginning of "The Lord of the Rings" says it all about how rigorous its approach is to information.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I could care less if Tolkien was racist.

So you do care to a certain extent?

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Tolkien believed strongly in true multiculturalism- as in, having a multiplicity of cultures in the world. He was strongly against 'multiculturalism' in its modern connotation, which to him meant mixing all the cultures together until everything was just the same flavorless blended monoculture the world over. "The bigger things get the smaller and duller or flatter the globe gets. It is getting to be all one blasted little provincial suburb. At any rate it ought to cut down travel. There will be nowhere to go."

I can sympathize with the 'duller or flatter' comment. I'm from the Boston area. Last year there was a large hurricane in the Southwest Pacific. I was mildly surprised by the number of people wearing Celtics T-shirts among the survivors.

But the lack of trade and travel in Middle Earth rubs my suspension of disbelief some. In The Hobbit, the elves of Mirkwood and men of the lake traded with one another, and this extended to dwarves as well when there are no dragons in residence in the Lonely Mountain. And yet, in LoTR, the area around Rauros Falls was portrayed as completely abandoned. In the real world, at the point where navigable rivers become unnavigable, where one encounters the first serious rapids or waterfall, one expects a trade town. The lack of a trade town at Rauros implies a serious lack of trade between the upper and lower Anduin. Of course, the presence of the Shadow in southern Mirkwood might have had a lot to do with this.

But if Tolkien thought the homogeneous blandness of modern cultures inhibits the tourist trade, why no tourists in Middle Earth? Why did Sauron and Radagast have so little knowledge of where to find that uncouth land called Shire? If the wise of Gondor don't have a clue how to find Rivendell, who does?

I'm not going to whine and cry about this, but it seems to me there is a lot of isolation and provincialism in LoTR.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Indeed it all is Totally rubbish! A race being inferior to other is nowhere seen in the books. Tolkien being a War Veteran could never write such stuff. Also, his writing suggests he believes in Love, Compassion, and the positive things our society needs. Racism isn't there, and your post explains it wonderfully.

Thank you for your kind words.

Originally Posted by blantyr

I wouldn't go that far. The elves and some men descended from Numenor knew something of 'The Art' while other races could only learn degraded forms of magic. Certain cultures had more attractive life styles and values than others.

That is true, but that disparity in cultural and technological "enlightenment" is not depicted as being the fault of those who lacked it.

Originally Posted by blantyr

I'd also note a great deal of segregation in Middle Earth. The men of Rohan and Gondor spoke ill of the Lady of the Golden Wood. Galadriel and Fangorn lived very near to one another's borders for Ages, yet never visited one another. King Aragorn forbade Big Folk from entering the Shire.

Segregation, yes, but it doesn't appear to be due to any deliberate decision to avoid other races because they were seen as inferior. The Elves in the Third Age were generally feared by Men such as the Rohirrim, who had simply grown estranged from them over time. And the ban on Men entering the Shire was an outgrowth, it seems, of the invasion of the land by Saruman's men. It may be notable the Aragorn's edict was that Men were to stay out of the Shire. Dwarves and Elves apparently were under no such law.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Segregation, yes, but it doesn't appear to be due to any deliberate decision to avoid other races because they were seen as inferior.

That's true. I think the real "issue" some people have is that if a person has dark skin or squint eyes, he's automatically the enemy. It's unclear, though, if the "problem" lies in ME's culture or in Tolkien's decision to make it so which may (or may not ) reflect his own views. The problem with that, of course, is that I don't see much of a problem as ME geography and partially its history mirrors that of the real world, and the divide between good and bad on a global scale is more geographical. On an individual scale, the scale that really matters, nothing's black and white (no pun intended... or maybe it was). All the examples of "bad" Elves and "bad" Numenorians and lack of enimity because of race show the true reasons for everything, the individual scale. Why do people really do things. But the global scale divides "good" and "bad" geographically, so no wonder than on a global scale someone with squint eyes is going to be automatically thought an enemy. He may be good, but he's still an enemy.

[Mithalwen]

Can I point out that squint eyed is not a racial description but a medical one. It simply refers to someone who has a squint or is making a face to give a similar appearance. While derogatory to those those afflicted it is not racially so.

Edit.. noticed WCH made this point upthread but will let it stand as bears repeating and the phrase is still being mentioned.

[Alfirin]

An interesting example might be found in the Lossoth/Men of Forochel; the Wests most Nothernly men. They might be of a nordic/germanic stock, but with thier igloos (I think Tolkien said they make houses of snow) and use of bone runnered sleds, they sound an awful lot like Inuit/Eskimos (or whatever the Greenland/Iceland branch of the First Nations call themselves). If that is the case, they are presumably dark skinned and "squint eyed" by the racial standards of the West. And yet, they are very clearly "good guys" (they may not be very deeply involved in the affairs of thier Southern Neigbors, but when they do come into the tales of the west, it is very clearly on the side of the "good".
And I've always interpreted Aragorn's Edict as being to keep men from SETTLING in the shire (not a wholesale "no man can ever even enter the border), lest they take it over from the somewhat less warlike hobbits. Hobbits are largely peaceful (even if they can be roused to defend themsevles) so let them live where they live in peace. It's to keep the hobbits safe, not to keep them isolated (it's not like Aragorn banned hobbits from leaving the shire, or required that they all move there.) It's sort of similar to what he did for the Woses of the Drudan forests; He's trying to make sure that no one molests them, or can come in with great masses of men and arms and take the territory from them.