Tolkien and Psychedelics

[Sardy]

So glad to see this thread revived!!! I do have a lot more to say on the subject, and will be back when time permits. For now, here is an absolutely wonderful and brilliant essay discussing Tolkien, mind expansion and shamanism:

http://www.realitysandwich.com/tolki..._consciousness

[Ulvenok]

I think this discussion will eventually lead to either smoking or wine, I don't think the hobbits ever were on any psychedelics in the book. If you read it and while doing that found it to be strange or otherwordly. It's probably because you felt you were on psychedelics, not necessarly the hobbits lol. But it's understandable, many of the things Tolkien describes is foreign to most people. Ever been on a lake fishing at noon, ever been on the top of a norwegian mountain flower field? Nature is capable of making one feel one is on psychedelics and Tolkien's description of star light and sleeping in some tree or whatever it was, can to the imaginative reader or maybe unexperienced reader be interpreted as psychedelic.

But how to move away from psychedelics, since the hobbits nor Tolkien ever used them. Was there any wine or smoking god, one would think since smoking is such a big thing in middle earth, there would be some maia "responsible" for it, like Bacchus or Dionysus were to the greeks. I remember the Numenorians came with wine to middle earth, but they must have learnt it from the elves, but where did the elves learn it? As for smoking where did man learn to grow and use that, I don't think the elves were very interested in smoking, more of a hobbit thing. I'm sure some of you would know.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

The hobbits seemed to be the race in which smoking was the most popular, and they didn't really care about gods or religion. If I remember rightly, the Numenoreans worshiped Eru, and no one else before Sauron came and corrupted them. Does anyone know if the elves in Middle-earth actually worshiped the Valar or Eru? They obviously knew about higher beings, but when it came time to acknowledge them, there was just a nod or a moment of silence out of respect, like Faramir did before he ate. In any case, smoking and drinking were not religious practises in Middle-earth. If anyone has a quote or information that would prove that statement wrong, I would love to hear about it.

Christians believe that God created this world for us, that the mountains and trees and oceans, all of the beautiful things found in nature were created as a sort of love letter for us. Obviously, there are many spiritual things to find in nature, or at least things that appear spiritual, because there are many religions and movements centred around it. Many Christians go into a place of natural surroundings, like Denali or Yellowstone to grow closer to God. If we are including religious worship and devotion in with "psychedelics" then, I think, that we could include communing with God in nature. J.R.R. Tolkien was a lover of nature, and I think that he may have specifically searched it out for a spiritual experience. That is evident in his writings. The elves and hobbits had a soft spot for natural surroundings. There are many gardeners (perhaps all) who feel a connection with the dirt that could be described as spiritual.

I'm afraid I've gone off topic, or at least strayed from whatever I was trying to say. I think the main point of this was J.R.R. Tolkien probably had something like one of those "experiences" by communing with God in nature.

[Ulvenok]

I think the main point of this was J.R.R. Tolkien probably had something like one of those "experiences" by communing with God in nature.

Most people who have spent some time in real nature has experienced this, to confuse such an experience with LSD and drugs is however not really well. Maybe the hobbits had eaten some weird mushrooms though, before they encountered the elves.

[Lalwendë]

Upthread I'd mentioned the scary dream Christopher Tolkien used to have of 'Maddo' and now I've found a picture for you. I still find it creepy:Maddo.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

You're right, Lal! Maddo certainly is creepy.

[Sindarin Shaman]

Sardy, thanks for that article link from reality sandwhich. Brilliant article....summarizes my sentiments regarding this visionary element in Tolkien's work...which is the very essence of his work. And that is the reason I am so drawn to Tolkien's work...it's beyond his work, it's what his work so eloquently and compellingly points to: illumination.

Psychedelics are not the point...they are the tools. Tolkien didn't use them, but that is irrelevant. It is the visionary experience that is the point.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Sindarin Shaman

...
Psychedelics are not the point...they are the tools. Tolkien didn't use them, but that is irrelevant. It is the visionary experience that is the point.

I agree.

Psychedelics do fit the bill, but then why do psychedelics do what they do and what, when you think about it, actually constitues a 'psychedelic'? Some, like Mormons I've spoken with, regard caffeine as a drug to be avoided. We are so accustomed to this drug that we play down our tea and coffee, calling them 'stimulants', forgetting the ceremonies which once surrounded them.
Tobacco and alcohol have been mentioned already in this thread, but the same can be said of chocolate which, when prepared to certain recipes, produced various effects from the erotic to the hallucinagenic. I'd also add antidepressants to the list since they too are designed to alter the mind, though perhaps in the opposite way to stimulants.

That said, I'm left with the question of what it is drugs do. Surely they would not work at all unless our brains had a natural equivalent:

I am thinking of something pointed out by Lalwende in another thread concerning the effect of the Rings of Power. Tolkien apparently created ME terms which seem to correspond to the conscious and subconscious, or to the physical and 'Dreamtime' worlds, and that the Rings broke down the barrier between them.

Saruman's ring and his facination with 'many colours' looks rather suspect in the context of drugs. However, I do not believe or mean to suggest Tolkein himself needed to use 'hard' drugs. In fact I'm inclined to think that the transformative powers of the Elves, Maiar and others has its roots in JRR's religion (the shining face of Moses, Elijah's chariot, the face of Stephen...).

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

... Does anyone know if the elves in Middle-earth actually worshiped the Valar or Eru? ...

What does worship actually mean? If you mean "making a lot of noise with the the name of Eru constantly repeated" then no. Thank Eru they do no such thing!
Is silent meditation worship? Among the Quakers and monastic orders it emphatically is. Is contemplating images of heroes worship? Among those who love Icons it is. Is singing among the trees, chanting, making poems and manuscripts worship? If one sets one's mind on what is noble then even washing the dishes can be transformed from drudgery to an act of worship. The Dwarves, Elves and Men of ME all have their own way of expressing the Song which made them.

"...so carefully, carefully with the plates."


.

[Lalwendë]

Just a thought - when we are considering whether Men in Middle-earth 'worshipped' the Valar, it's probably important to note that the Maiar walked amongst them. They were living with their own 'gods' and I wonder whether that would somewhat remove the need or urge for actual 'worship'. I'm comfortable with Men offering thanks and respect, as there's evidence of, but not sure if they would actually 'worship'. I'm not even sure there's evidence they did.

And another thought on 'psychedelics' for the discussion - what about the time shifts experienced in Lorien? Something I have read is that certain experiences can mess with your concept of time. Why do the non-Elves in the Fellowship experience their time in Lorien as fleeting:

"Legolas stirred in his boat. 'Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; 'but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last.'

"'But the wearing is slow in Lórien,' said Frodo. 'The power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, in Caras Galadhon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.'"

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Just a thought - when we are considering whether Men in Middle-earth 'worshipped' the Valar, it's probably important to note that the Maiar walked amongst them. They were living with their own 'gods' and I wonder whether that would somewhat remove the need or urge for actual 'worship'. I'm comfortable with Men offering thanks and respect, as there's evidence of, but not sure if they would actually 'worship'. I'm not even sure there's evidence they did.

And another thought on 'psychedelics' for the discussion - what about the time shifts experienced in Lorien? Something I have read is that certain experiences can mess with your concept of time. Why do the non-Elves in the Fellowship experience their time in Lorien as fleeting:

That is Tolkien touching on the folklorish motifs of Faery, where a mortal misstep lands one in a different dimension (like Tir Na nOg) which moves outside of time. Such time shifts can be seen in everything from the Irish tale of Oisin to Washington Irving's Rip Van Winkle to Queen's song '39. Although guitarist Brian May, an astrophysicist in his spare time, was also inferring space travel in the song.

[Mithalwen]

I appreciate that the relationship of the Eldar and the ainur is different to contemporary religion, a matter of knowledge rather than faith, but surely "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" is a hymn of praise to Varda not just a song. So, in a small way, worship..

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I appreciate that the relationship of the Eldar and the ainur is different to contemporary religion, a matter of knowledge rather than faith, but surely "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" is a hymn of praise to Varda not just a song. So, in a small way, worship..

Surely to those of deep faith, it's also a matter of 'knowledge' that their God exists? A song of worship or reverence can just as well have no religious connotation - surely there are many examples of what I might call 'faithless wonder'? The thought that springs to mind is the starry eyed wonder of astrophysicists for the Universe - they are creatures of Science and usually reject religion completely but almost always display total wonderment and reverence for the cosmos...

...Richard Dawkins would probably beat me with one of his polemic books for that, but I have seen Prof Brian Cox so I beg to differ with him

Originally Posted by Ardent

I don't think the matter of knowledge over belief is that clear cut in ME. The Eldar got their creation story from Rumil, who must have written it down for some purpose, even if only to inform the younger races. Gandalf, a Maiar, had to struggle to recall his memories as a disembodied being:

"... since we parted. I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten." The White Rider.

"...Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten..." The Window on the West.

If the reciting of hymns and rhymes is a natural means of reminding an embodied being (Hröa = body/consciousness) of their Fëa (spirit/subconscious) existance, then the Rings of Power can be seen as an artifical means of doing so. The Rings seem like psychedelic drugs; they break down the barrier between the Fëa and Hröa but take hold of their owners in a way which sounds like addiction. Like a lamp which burns faster than its wick can absorb or replenish its oil, they can leave their wearer/addict feeling 'stretched'.

Hmmm, I like where this is going I think...What about how this would affect an Elf? How would it be different to how it might affect a Man or Hobbit?

And what about Dwarves? We know that the effects of the Rings on them were somewhat unexpected to Sauron. They changed them, perhaps made them greedy, but they did not come under his control - and we know they were created in a different way.

We certainly know that the One Ring had effects similar to a drug on the bearers, that analogy has been drawn many a time, and I think it's a fair one. Hobbits might be able to deal with beer and cigs, but Rings are another matter.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

That is Tolkien touching on the folklorish motifs of Faery, where a mortal misstep lands one in a different dimension (like Tir Na nOg) which moves outside of time. Such time shifts can be seen in everything from the Irish tale of Oisin to Washington Irving's Rip Van Winkle to Queen's song '39. Although guitarist Brian May, an astrophysicist in his spare time, was also inferring space travel in the song.

The Perilous Realm...often danger is linked to the timeslip in faery, which may go some way to explaining the fear that some have in Middle-earth for Lothlorien.

I keep thinking about Diviner's Sage, which apparently when chewed throws the user into a deep altered consciousness frequently involving significant time shifts, yet it is all over in five minutes.