Unknown beings!?

[Bêthberry]

Those creatures are named in one of the very earliest tales Tolkien wrote. However, as Christopher Tolkien says in BoLT I, such creatures were very early on removed or edited out of the Lost Tales. They do not exist in the version of The Silm which CT published.

Dimitra Fimi's research on Tolkien suggests that in the very initial stages Tolkien conceived of fairies very similarly to their counterparts in Victorian literature (see the poem he came to dislike intensely, Goblin Feet) but that he came to despise these fluttering diminutive creatures and wanted to establish more robust fairies for himself.

The question of Tom's and Goldberry's similarity to them is very interesting and one I explored in a paper I gave at Return of the Ring last summer.I think there may well be others reasons Tolkien removed them.

However, since Tolkien did remove these fay creatures from his tales, that likely suggests they wouldn't rate in any power rating with those creatures who remain.

EDIT: Here's a link to Goblin Feet. I haven't verified if this online version is consistent with the print versions I've seen, though: Goblin Feet

[Lalwendë]

Also Gandalf mentions there being strange creatures gnawing at the root of the mountain. Gnawing is a direct reference by Tolkien to Níðhöggr.

Ulvenok, you've picked up on one of my favourite things there. I like digging out these references in Tolkien's work and he couldn't have chosen anything more frightening to be lurking under the Mountains (especially if you read the stark way the Niddhogr is described in the Voluspa).

I think the very presence of characters like Tom and Goldberry, and the 'nameless things' (and Pukel Men, and Ents etc) hints that there were more creatures and being in Middle-earth than we meet in the stories. That 'layering' adds the depth to Tolkien's creation that is missing from a lot of other stories. I'm not sure if Tolkien intended that, but it works in any case.

As to 'power' I think it can't be doubted that Ungoliant had an incredible level of it. Have a nose around because there's quite a lot of things on here about this subject.

[Ulvenok]

He may have removed the fairies but Tom and Goldberry are still there. Tom found Goldberry in a river and he sometimes refers to her as the riverwoman's daughter. Who is the riverwoman? Another unclassified being we know nothing about. Anyway I still find this quote intriguing.

They were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much...

It makes too much sense to be ignored, at least Tom and Ungoliant has to be of their kind. In which case Tom would be able to contest with the great powers, but never would since unlike Ungoliant he isn't concerned with a full belly or what is going on in the world at large. It's not in Tom's nature to fight, he is wholly neutral and just observes and studies everything as it is. So while he probably could make short work of Sauron, power really never plays into it since he isn't concerned with that or what is happening to innocent people in far away lands.

Anyway it's very interesting that Tolkien chose to include a being like Ungoliant in the Lord of the rings, a very minor major comment indeed.

[Inziladun]

Here is one of the many threads on the subject of Bombadil.

[Lalwendë]

I always think that Tom was part of Eru's creation of Arda itself, separate to the Valar, the Elves and Men. And put there by Tolkien to confound us! It would be very easy to have Eru create an ordered world with all the necessary gods and races in their correct place but Tolkien doesn't let Eru do that. Instead, Eru really is omnipotent and unknowable and lets beings like Tom and Ungoliant into his creation - as a result confounding all the readers!

We can only theorise

My theory on Ungoliant is that she isn't evil at all. She is simply an 'absence of light' or Un- Light. If Light is seen as somehow 'holy' in Tolkien's creation then Ungoliant is an absence of Light. She feeds on it like a black hole, but she isn't evil as she is part of what Eru either sent into the world or caused to happen during its creation.

[Rhod the Red]

Came to a sticky end too, didn't she eat herself?

[Elf_NFB]

I would say Ungoliant is a being of power somewhere between the Valar and the Maiar. It's pretty clear that sufficiently strong Maiar could defeat a Valar. Eonwe (Herald of Manwe) "whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda" So even the great warrior Tulkas could not defeat Eonwe.


At any rate, the Silmarillion describes Ungoliant as descending "from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted into his service." So, she was one of the spirits that entered the world after its creation.. just like the other Maiar and the Valar.

It's a pet theory of mine that lesser spirits (less than the weakest Maiar) explain creatures like the Eagles, Huon, Tom, and even (perhaps) Ents. These lesser spirits descent into the world but are not corporeal. They join the bodies of non-intelligent creatures and make them "more." The Eagles are HUGE. Huan can speak. Ents move about and speak. Melkor appears to do something similar with Carcaroth where "he became filled with a devouring spirit."

[Ulvenok]

I would say Ungoliant is a being of power somewhere between the Valar and the Maiar.

Yet she trapped Melkor the greatest of the Valar in her nets and made him squeal for his Balrog army, no sense.

It's pretty clear that sufficiently strong Maiar could defeat a Valar.

None can defeat a valar, Melkor was never defeated just thrown out of the world. So no a maia wouldn't be able to defeat a valar.

At any rate, the Silmarillion describes Ungoliant as descending "from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted into his service." So, she was one of the spirits that entered the world after its creation.. just like the other Maiar and the Valar.

I don't think it ever stated that she was corrupted into his service by him. Ungoliant's origins is like Bombadil's unknown. It'd be quite strange if Ungoliant was just another maia that Melkor first corrupted into his service, then she turns on him...

It's a pet theory of mine that lesser spirits (less than the weakest Maiar) explain creatures like the Eagles, Huon, Tom, and even (perhaps) Ents. These lesser spirits descent into the world but are not corporeal. They join the bodies of non-intelligent creatures and make them "more." The Eagles are HUGE. Huan can speak. Ents move about and speak. Melkor appears to do something similar with Carcaroth where "he became filled with a devouring spirit."

Unlike Bombadil those creatures or spirits are explained, Bombadil is not an ent neither is he an maia. That much is certain...

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

None can defeat a valar, Melkor was never defeated just thrown out of the world. So no a maia wouldn't be able to defeat a valar.

Given that none of the Valar fought in the Host of the West during the War of Wrath surely someone of sub-Valar stature must have been the one to personally best Morgoth at the end of the First Age. I always assumed it was Ëonwë himself who did the deed, although given how much Morgoth had weakened himself by that point he may be a bad example.
I'm not averse to the theory that Ungoliant was a being whose origin lay in the Discord of Melkor; evidently there were beings which operated outside the conventional Vala-Maia-Elf-Man "power structure" of Arda.

[Elf_NFB]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

Yet she trapped Melkor the greatest of the Valar in her nets and made him squeal for his Balrog army, no sense.

Of course it makes sense. Melkor is on a self destructive path where he divests himself of his own power. He becomes lesser and lesser over time. Read Morgoth's Ring in the History of Middle-earth series. It explains a good deal about how the greatest of the Valar is brought low.

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

None can defeat a valar, Melkor was never defeated just thrown out of the world. So no a maia wouldn't be able to defeat a valar.

Melkor was defeated.. not destroyed. Yes.. it is a case of semantics, but an important one. Melkor was defeated first just before the Elves arrived. He was defeated and imprisoned. He was defeated again after the War of Wrath and put forth from the world. Ungoliant had him all but beaten until the Balrogs saved him. Heck, even a Noldor hurt him enough such that "the pain of his wounds could not be healed." SO I would say a Valar can easily be defeated... though not killed/destroyed.

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

I don't think it ever stated that she was corrupted into his service by him. Ungoliant's origins is like Bombadil's unknown. It'd be quite strange if Ungoliant was just another maia that Melkor first corrupted into his service, then she turns on him...

Bombadil IS a complete unknown (and therefore fun to discuss). However, when I put something in quotes, that means the statement is a QUOTATION. The statement about UNgoliant comes straight from the Silmarillion... Chapter 8 "Of The Darkening Of Valinor".... second paragraph... a little more than half way through.