Unknown beings!?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

None can defeat a valar, Melkor was never defeated just thrown out of the world. So no a maia wouldn't be able to defeat a valar.

Given that none of the Valar fought in the Host of the West during the War of Wrath surely someone of sub-Valar stature must have been the one to personally best Morgoth at the end of the First Age. I always assumed it was Ëonwë himself who did the deed, although given how much Morgoth had weakened himself by that point he may be a bad example.
I'm not averse to the theory that Ungoliant was a being whose origin lay in the Discord of Melkor; evidently there were beings which operated outside the conventional Vala-Maia-Elf-Man "power structure" of Arda.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Given that none of the Valar fought in the Host of the West during the War of Wrath surely someone of sub-Valar stature must have been the one to personally best Morgoth at the end of the First Age. I always assumed it was Ëonwë himself who did the deed, although given how much Morgoth had weakened himself by that point he may be a bad example.

I doubt Morgoth would have dared to personally fight by that point, bereft of his minions. After all, it was only the fear of being humiliated and losing their respect that moved him to accept Fingolfin, a mere Elf's challenge. Morgoth was a coward at heart.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I'm not averse to the theory that Ungoliant was a being whose origin lay in the Discord of Melkor; evidently there were beings which operated outside the conventional Vala-Maia-Elf-Man "power structure" of Arda.

I'm in favor of the idea that Ungoliant and Tom Bomadil were possibly kindred spirits; both Ainu who entered Arda separately from the Valar, acting apart from them in pursuit of different motives.

[Ulvenok]

Given that none of the Valar fought in the Host of the West during the War of Wrath surely someone of sub-Valar stature must have been the one to personally best Morgoth at the end of the First Age.

I don't think he fought at all, all his minions were destroyed or fled then they cut off his legs and used his crown as a collar and threw him out of the world. He was never defeated or killed just subdued and that most likely by the other valar. I find it hard to believe that elves or maias would be able to cut off his legs and turn his iron crown into a collar. It just seems unlikely...

I'm in favor of the idea that Ungoliant and Tom Bomadil were possibly kindred spirits; both Ainu who entered Arda separately from the Valar, acting apart from them in pursuit of different motives.

It's a bit hard to put them in that ainu category, because they have both shown to be far more powerful than ordinary maias like Sauron and Melian etc. The valar are specifically those who sang the great music and neither Ungoliant or Tom were with them. One can imagine them to be similar to the valar but not really them, because they are numbered.

EDIT: I don't remember the exact phrase but I think at some point there were "other" beings or spirits that Eru sent into arda. It's very foggy, but I remember it clearly. (Not named)

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

I don't think he fought at all, all his minions were destroyed or fled then they cut off his legs and used his crown as a collar and threw him out of the world. He was never defeated or killed just subdued and that most likely by the other valar. I find it hard to believe that elves or maias would be able to cut off his legs and turn his iron crown into a collar. It just seems unlikely...

I can believe that he didn't put up much of a fight by that point but someone did cut off his legs when he was caught in the depths of Angband. Morgoth actually was killed, although it was after being brought back to the West. According to the Professor in Morgoth's Ring he was "made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Namo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates". Obviously Mandos, another Vala, did that. By that point the Valar did have the power to kill him, albeit only because he had so thoroughly confined himself to a single body as a consequence of his own evil. As I say, Morgoth is a bad example because of how drastically his personal power was reduced over the course of the First Age (from being the mightiest of the Ainur to being relatively weak in comparison to the Valar). In that way it doesn't seem to me that it would be beyond the capacity of Ëonwë, mightiest of the Maiar, to at least be the one who subdued him beneath Angband. He was the Captain of the Host of the West so presumably there was no one of higher spiritual statue (ie any Valar) present. By comparison the Professor writes in Morgoth's Ring that it took Manwë himself to subdue Melkor at the end of the Siege of Utumno.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

It's a bit hard to put them in that ainu category, because they have both shown to be far more powerful than ordinary maias like Sauron and Melian etc. The valar are specifically those who sang the great music and neither Ungoliant or Tom were with them. One can imagine them to be similar to the valar but not really them, because they are numbered.

While all the Valar were of the Ainur (as were the Maiar), it wasn't only they who took part in the Music. Some of the Ainur remained with Ilúvatar outside Arda.

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it...Therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

Silmarillion Ainulindalë

The Valar were only the greatest of those known to the Elves. They did not know the number of the Maia.

Additionally, Bombadil at least was apparently not the match of Sauron. That was seemingly the consensus reached at the Council of Elrond when the idea of sending the Ring to him was rejected.

[Morsul the Dark]

so what I'm getting is... Bombadil is Cthulu

[Ulvenok]

Additionally, Bombadil at least was apparently not the match of Sauron. That was seemingly the consensus reached at the Council of Elrond when the idea of sending the Ring to him was rejected.

That wasn't because "Bombadil was apparently no match for Sauron", they chose not to send him the ring because Gandalf said he would probably lose it. Bombadil has shown to be more powerful than any maia we have heard of in any of Tolkien's writings. His manipulation of the one ring is his greatest feat, any other maia like Gandalf for example would sucumb to it and become very powerful wearing it but Tom just played around with it and even made it dissapear. This feat alone is in my opinion proof enough that he would make short work of Sauron.

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it...Therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

Oh that is a nice quote, "but other, and among them many of the greatest" this doesn't leave out the possability that there were still great valar close to Melkor and Manwe in power that never entered it. However Tom was in the world before the valar entered it, still I find both Ungoliant and Tom to most likely belong to these who never entered it yet did.

I also wonder what Gandalf said to Tom before he left for the undying lands. Whatever he said would most likely reveal Tom's real identity and status in relation to Gandalf. Then we have the dream that Frodo had when he sailed for Valinor, that reminded him of how he felt when sleeping at Bombadil's house. This also is a sign of Bombadil's divine status in the world. Anyway I still have a small recollection of there being some phrase speaking of "other" spirits that eru sent into arda unlike the valar and maiar.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

That wasn't because "Bombadil was apparently no match for Sauron", they chose not to send him the ring because Gandalf said he would probably lose it. Bombadil has shown to be more powerful than any maia we have heard of in any of Tolkien's writings. His manipulation of the one ring is his greatest feat, any other maia like Gandalf for example would sucumb to it and become very powerful wearing it but Tom just played around with it and even made it dissapear. This feat alone is in my opinion proof enough that he would make short work of Sauron.

Bombadil was expressly said to have no power over the Ring, which was the same as saying he had no power over Sauron. It was said at the Council that Sauron could not be defied by Bombadil alone. "Would not" was a consideration, though Gandalf indeed thought Tom would take the Ring if he was begged to do so. , but could not is the more important point.
The Ring had no power over Tom because he had no inherent desire for power he did not possess already; he was satisfied with his state of affairs. Gandalf said Bombadil was "his own master", which to me is simply a statement that Tom's purpose in Arda was unique, not necessarily a measure of his inherent power.
That of course is conjectural, but so is a great deal of discussion on Tom.

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

Oh that is a nice quote, "but other, and among them many of the greatest" this doesn't leave out the possability that there were still great valar close to Melkor and Manwe in power that never entered it. However Tom was in the world before the valar entered it, still I find both Ungoliant and Tom to most likely belong to these who never entered it yet did.

That's all I was saying. Tom and Ungoliant seem to be similar in that both are obviously beings with great spiritual power, each having motives and purposes that appear to have been their own. Ainu who entered Arda separately from the Valar and Maia would seem to fill the bill.

[Elf_NFB]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

so what I'm getting is... Bombadil is Cthulu

Nah... Cthulhu doesn't dance.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Elf_NFB

Nah... Cthulhu doesn't dance.

What color are Cthulhu's boots?