An Unexpected Journey, or the morning after

[Aganzir]

But even Fili and Kili, who are the youngest, are around 80 at the time of the quest and should therefore be fully grown. Also I seem to remember a passage in The People's of Middle-earth that claims dwarves are born bearded (even though it's arguable you can't use it as a canonical source). Anyway thanks for posting the quote, Rhod - being reminded of Azog's death makes me happy.

[Rhod the Red]

Not meaning to be rude, but the resurrection of Azog by Sauron is no doubt intended as a plot device to imply a spookiness about a Necromancer in the background bringing people back to life, which I found was good for a film. The "He's dead! I saw him die." Like in the Doctor Who episode of the Android Invasion, if film makers are careful it has a nice spooky effect on the mind about a hidden danger growing that may be a great danger to the characters in the future, PJ got it perfect, at least for me.

Better than the overused theme of 'I am your father', etc. The 'back from the dead danger' is mostly badly used, like with Zombie movies. If it has a mystery about it and only used for one or two characters, like in Hobbit P1, ooooooooo, it feels good as a movie goer as a plot device.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

Not meaning to be rude, but the resurrection of Azog by Sauron is no doubt intended as a plot device to imply a spookiness about a Necromancer in the background bringing people back to life, which I found was good for a film. The "He's dead! I saw him die." Like in the Doctor Who episode of the Android Invasion, if film makers are careful it has a nice spooky effect on the mind about a hidden danger growing that may be a great danger to the characters in the future, PJ got it perfect, at least for me.

Better than the overused theme of 'I am your father', etc. The 'back from the dead danger' is mostly badly used, like with Zombie movies. If it has a mystery about it and only used for one or two characters, like in Hobbit P1, ooooooooo, it feels good as a movie goer as a plot device.

But Thorin did not see Azog die in the film (another annoying thing about Jackson's movie). In fact, if I recall correctly, in the film Azog never left his feet after combat with Thorin. Azog's arm was severed below the wrist and he was carried off bellowing by other Orcs into Moria. He was not laying comatose on the field; therefore, Thorin claiming later "He's dead! I saw him die!" is patently absurd even with PJ's illogical scripting.

Losing a hand in battle is not necessarily a death blow. The greatest concern is infection later. But plenty of soldiers have survived the loss of an arm or a leg, so was movie-Thorin plain dumb or was he wishfully thinking?

[Rhod the Red]

While Orcs have medicine, material insight doesn't seem to indicate it's much beyond energy boosters. It's up to the watcher to decide if it's reasonable to assume that a major injury to Orcs with cultural deprivation of serious medicine die afterwards. It didn't click as incoherent in my mind when I saw it, but that's just me, lol.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

While Orcs have medicine, material insight doesn't seem to indicate it's much beyond energy boosters. It's up to the watcher to decide if it's reasonable to assume that a major injury to Orcs with cultural deprivation of serious medicine die afterwards. It didn't click as incoherent in my mind when I saw it, but that's just me, lol.

Cultural deprivation? A warlike race like the orcs might not have delicate surgical procedures, but they would know enough to cauterize a wound. Even the most barbarous tribes had the wherewithal to staunch the most serious wounds. Thousands of years afterward, surgery in the American Civil War was basically a saw and perhaps some alcohol. If it was a clean wound and didn't get infected, you survived. Thousands did survive after amputations.

And if I recall correctly, the Uruk-hai had a salve they slathered on Merry's head that proved quite effective in healing his wound.

[The Barrow-Wight]

Everyone, please stay on topic and avoid talking about each other. Thanks!

[Morthoron]

Peter Jackson noted the Orkish cordial and salve in The Two Towers.

Therefore, even in the LotR trilogy PJ adheres to the abilities of Orkish medicine, but then has Thorin make a claim that is absurd, given the turn of events in the film itself. Thorin did not and could not see Azog die. So, if there is going to be some questionable plotpoint about a necromantic resurrection, has PJ once again shot himself in the foot with bad editing?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

but the resurrection of Azog by Sauron

When was it implied that Sauron resurrected him?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

But even Fili and Kili, who are the youngest, are around 80 at the time of the quest and should therefore be fully grown. Also I seem to remember a passage in The People's of Middle-earth that claims dwarves are born bearded (even though it's arguable you can't use it as a canonical source). Anyway thanks for posting the quote, Rhod - being reminded of Azog's death makes me happy.

The horror. Imagine having to give birth to, clean up and feed a baby with a bristly face...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

Not meaning to be rude, but the resurrection of Azog by Sauron is no doubt intended as a plot device to imply a spookiness about a Necromancer

Don't worry - I don't consider opposing arguments rude. Anyway I don't think either that Azog has been resurrected, it seems more likely that he just survived getting his hand chopped off and the insertion of the fork.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But plenty of soldiers have survived the loss of an arm or a leg, so was movie-Thorin plain dumb or was he wishfully thinking?

Ah but if he believes something hard enough, it will come true! Arrogant bastard, and that's the way we love him.

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

The same with the reference in the White Council meeting that the With King was *killed* & buried, despite the inclusion of Glorfindel's prophesy of him not killable 'by any living Man' in the Return of the King film

Grr! I didn't even notice the fallacy in the film! There's nothing special whatsoever about Éowyn killing him now if he's been killed before. Grumble.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The horror. Imagine having to give birth to, clean up and feed a baby with a bristly face...

Aww but maybe it's soft and fluffy baby beard! Like hair.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

Better than the overused theme of 'I am your father', etc. The 'back from the dead danger' is mostly badly used, like with Zombie movies. If it has a mystery about it and only used for one or two characters, like in Hobbit P1, ooooooooo, it feels good as a movie goer as a plot device.

Aw, c'mon. Not overused? Whenever I see an obviously significant character supposedly killed in the opening sequence, followed up by other characters making confident assertions about what a severe case of death this person is suffering from– I do this:

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Aw, c'mon. Not overused? Whenever I see an obviously significant character supposedly killed in the opening sequence, followed up by other characters making confident assertions about what a severe of death this person is suffering from– I do this:

Indeed I tend to think well I wonder When I'll see them again

[Lalwendë]

Hang on....Azog was killed? Really? I got the impression right away that he wasn't dead and Thorin was mistaken. Why would chopping a hand or limb off kill you, presuming the blood loss was staunched? We've all heard colourful tales about farmers and hunters who have crawled for miles to safety after losing a limb, so a hand isn't that much of a big deal.

[Ben K.]

We get that impression because we expect such medical absurdities from movies. Losing a limb like that needs instant cauterisation and restoration of the amount of blood volume he is clearly shown losing in the scene. Neither occurs. Thorin is perfectly correct to assert with confidence that Azog is dead, he would be in real life without modern medicine.

Now I'm not sure about any necromancing, but Rhod is entirely correct in noting that the scene discussing the necromancer feeds directly into our reveal of an alive Azog. It's pretty strong evidence actually, since that how PJ edits.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Ben K.

We get that impression because we expect such medical absurdities from movies. Losing a limb like that needs instant cauterisation and restoration of the amount of blood volume he is clearly shown losing in the scene. Neither occurs. Thorin is perfectly correct to assert with confidence that Azog is dead, he would be in real life without modern medicine.

Now I'm not sure about any necromancing, but Rhod is entirely correct in noting that the scene discussing the necromancer feeds directly into our reveal of an alive Azog. It's pretty strong evidence actually, since that how PJ edits.

Plenty of medieval soldiers suffered terrible injuries on the battlefield and lived - and medical care certainly wouldn't have been easy to find at say Towton or Tewkesbury. This Azog character is also presumably made of sterner stuff than a man. However, I can see that Thorin might think he had met his end, as Orcs and Goblins can't have had a reputation of caring for their sick and injured (and yet Azog clearly was in command of lesser goblins who were eager to help him, even at risk of their own lives, as seen by his treatment of his war band in the scene where he confronts Thorin in the trees). He probably rightly assumed he had crawled into a hole and died. But I didn't assume that.