An Unexpected Journey, or the morning after

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Thanks. This is obviously an issue that requires prompt resolution!!!

I will say that bearded dwarven women are one of my least favorite parts of Middle earth.

We saw it again tonight and yes - the dwarven women do have sideburns, and it looks really cool! They could have botched it but I'm happy they didn't.

Overall I liked the film better on the second time. When you know what to expect, it's easier to ignore the parts you don't like and pay closer attention to the details. I still think the beginning is immensely better than the action parts and the end though, and even though I'm still not too bothered by the lack of beards, Thorin's short facial hair disturbed me more this time. The younger dwarves not so much because, well, they're young - but they would be better with longer beards too.

Also, we spotted Peter Jackson! I'll let Hookbill tell more about it though because it was him who saw him.

[Rhod the Red]

I want to intervene by arguing always having Dwarves with medium sized beards is too old or overused, in my view. Having younger & variety portrayals helps ensure realism.

Beards are a fashion, obviously not all Dwarves will cooperate with it.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

We saw it again tonight and yes - the dwarven women do have sideburns, and it looks really cool!

The mystery is resolved.

[Rhod the Red]

Dwarves also age very slowly in the physical sense. So even after they reach adulthood, for human standard appearance, it's logical many will look like teenagers for us long after they pass 30. It's after they reach 250 they 'rapidly' age;

Dwarves on average live to be 250 years of age. A 30 year old Dwarf is very much considered a young stripling, having not yet reached full adulthood. Thus it was considered very remarkable when the young Dain Ironfoot slew Azog the Orc chieftain of Moria, at only 32 years old. Once a Dwarf has reached maturity, he will stop aging almost entirely, remaining in prime physical condition, or perhaps middle-aged at the most, for over two centuries. However, when Dwarves reach 240 years old, they will begin to age very rapidly and their physical condition drastically worsen, essentially condensing the aging process that Men experience from 40 to 80 years of age into only ten years.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dwarves#Nature

[Aganzir]

But even Fili and Kili, who are the youngest, are around 80 at the time of the quest and should therefore be fully grown. Also I seem to remember a passage in The People's of Middle-earth that claims dwarves are born bearded (even though it's arguable you can't use it as a canonical source). Anyway thanks for posting the quote, Rhod - being reminded of Azog's death makes me happy.

[Rhod the Red]

Not meaning to be rude, but the resurrection of Azog by Sauron is no doubt intended as a plot device to imply a spookiness about a Necromancer in the background bringing people back to life, which I found was good for a film. The "He's dead! I saw him die." Like in the Doctor Who episode of the Android Invasion, if film makers are careful it has a nice spooky effect on the mind about a hidden danger growing that may be a great danger to the characters in the future, PJ got it perfect, at least for me.

Better than the overused theme of 'I am your father', etc. The 'back from the dead danger' is mostly badly used, like with Zombie movies. If it has a mystery about it and only used for one or two characters, like in Hobbit P1, ooooooooo, it feels good as a movie goer as a plot device.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

Not meaning to be rude, but the resurrection of Azog by Sauron is no doubt intended as a plot device to imply a spookiness about a Necromancer in the background bringing people back to life, which I found was good for a film. The "He's dead! I saw him die." Like in the Doctor Who episode of the Android Invasion, if film makers are careful it has a nice spooky effect on the mind about a hidden danger growing that may be a great danger to the characters in the future, PJ got it perfect, at least for me.

Better than the overused theme of 'I am your father', etc. The 'back from the dead danger' is mostly badly used, like with Zombie movies. If it has a mystery about it and only used for one or two characters, like in Hobbit P1, ooooooooo, it feels good as a movie goer as a plot device.

But Thorin did not see Azog die in the film (another annoying thing about Jackson's movie). In fact, if I recall correctly, in the film Azog never left his feet after combat with Thorin. Azog's arm was severed below the wrist and he was carried off bellowing by other Orcs into Moria. He was not laying comatose on the field; therefore, Thorin claiming later "He's dead! I saw him die!" is patently absurd even with PJ's illogical scripting.

Losing a hand in battle is not necessarily a death blow. The greatest concern is infection later. But plenty of soldiers have survived the loss of an arm or a leg, so was movie-Thorin plain dumb or was he wishfully thinking?

[Rhod the Red]

While Orcs have medicine, material insight doesn't seem to indicate it's much beyond energy boosters. It's up to the watcher to decide if it's reasonable to assume that a major injury to Orcs with cultural deprivation of serious medicine die afterwards. It didn't click as incoherent in my mind when I saw it, but that's just me, lol.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

but the resurrection of Azog by Sauron

When was it implied that Sauron resurrected him?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

But even Fili and Kili, who are the youngest, are around 80 at the time of the quest and should therefore be fully grown. Also I seem to remember a passage in The People's of Middle-earth that claims dwarves are born bearded (even though it's arguable you can't use it as a canonical source). Anyway thanks for posting the quote, Rhod - being reminded of Azog's death makes me happy.

The horror. Imagine having to give birth to, clean up and feed a baby with a bristly face...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

Not meaning to be rude, but the resurrection of Azog by Sauron is no doubt intended as a plot device to imply a spookiness about a Necromancer

Don't worry - I don't consider opposing arguments rude. Anyway I don't think either that Azog has been resurrected, it seems more likely that he just survived getting his hand chopped off and the insertion of the fork.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But plenty of soldiers have survived the loss of an arm or a leg, so was movie-Thorin plain dumb or was he wishfully thinking?

Ah but if he believes something hard enough, it will come true! Arrogant bastard, and that's the way we love him.

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

The same with the reference in the White Council meeting that the With King was *killed* & buried, despite the inclusion of Glorfindel's prophesy of him not killable 'by any living Man' in the Return of the King film

Grr! I didn't even notice the fallacy in the film! There's nothing special whatsoever about Éowyn killing him now if he's been killed before. Grumble.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The horror. Imagine having to give birth to, clean up and feed a baby with a bristly face...

Aww but maybe it's soft and fluffy baby beard! Like hair.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

Better than the overused theme of 'I am your father', etc. The 'back from the dead danger' is mostly badly used, like with Zombie movies. If it has a mystery about it and only used for one or two characters, like in Hobbit P1, ooooooooo, it feels good as a movie goer as a plot device.

Aw, c'mon. Not overused? Whenever I see an obviously significant character supposedly killed in the opening sequence, followed up by other characters making confident assertions about what a severe case of death this person is suffering from– I do this:

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Aw, c'mon. Not overused? Whenever I see an obviously significant character supposedly killed in the opening sequence, followed up by other characters making confident assertions about what a severe of death this person is suffering from– I do this:

Indeed I tend to think well I wonder When I'll see them again