Arwen vs. Galadriel

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I never disagreed about Cirdan, but there is no prove Elrond has the greatest foresight after Cirdan just becase of that:

The quote shows that Elrond is especially held in high regard in foresight. He alone is singled out as the most surprising that Cirdan had greater foresight.

If that is not enough here is another one from Gandalf implying that Elrond has the greatest foresight.

“He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.” -LOTR

Again, you have not proven that Elrond is the one with the greater foresight and knowlege in lore than Galadriel, who already was a match for the loremasters in Valinor. It just says that the foresight of his kindred came to him, besides the Maiar, his kindred is also Noldor, Sindar and men.
You just have to look on their actions and you see who is inhernently more powerful.

The quote was about Aragorn and his kin were the Children of Luthien, of whom Elrond was the oldest, the greatest and the most powerful.

As for lore, this is what Tolkien had to say.

Elrond symbolises throughout the ancient wisdom, and his House represents Lore – the preservation in reverent memory of all tradition concerning the good, wise, and beautiful. It is not a scene of action but of reflection.-Letter 131

Even if she didn´t visit or take part in some of the events, she can see everything that she wants with her mirror, how Beren meat Luthien, how Sauron lost his ring and Gondolin, how it was bilt and destroyed.

No she cannot.

The Noldor in generel were pupil of Aule and furthermore Galadriel is said that she was pupil of Yavanna.

Elrond was instructed by Eonwe, but that is besides the point. Elrond was renown for being the greatest lore master.

Still there must be an explanation on why Galadriel is able to see the future via her mirror, something Elrond is not able to do.

Elrond could see more of the future than Galadriel and so could Cirdan. The mirror is not something you could use at will to see whatever you wanted. Nobody knew what they would see and the visions did not always come true.

That tells us that Arwen and Aragons union was not one of the Eldar and Edain? Arwen is a decendant of Earendil and maybe he just forgot one union, dunno makes no sense for me. Arwen is as much as an elf as Luthien, even more. I don´t know yet what he tries to tell us with the biological differneces, but why should he suddenly come to the conclusion that the Union between Arwen and Aragon was not one of the Eldar and Edain? Because Arwen was one of the Eldar!

Eldar:


The term "Eldar" is applied for those who have seen the two trees, or at least began he journey. Furthermore it seems that the elves inherented it from their ancestors. Thingol, saw the two trees and was therefore an Eldar, Luthien did not see the two tress but was also accounted Eldar, so she inherented that from her father, so Arwen would inherent being one of the Eldar not only from Thingol, but also from Galadriel.

If he is explaning to us that it is biological not possible because they are not so similar as we thought always, then Arwen and Aragon match more then the other unions (because Arwen has more mortal blood than Idril or Luthien).

In the full quote he goes on to mention Aragorn and Arwen. In fact he repeats there being only two marriages in another letter.

There are thus two marriages of mortal and elf – both later coalescing in the kindred of Earendil, represented by Elrond
the Half-elven who appears in all the stories, even The Hobbit. -letter 131

As for biology he is actually basically saying he does not care if Elves and me should not be the same, because in his story they are.

Where because of that?: His kindred besides the Maiar are the Noldor and Sindar too, it doesn´t say that he has greater foresight than Galadriel.

The kin was the Children of Luthien, the Blessed foremother as Tolkien calls her.

Where is Elrond singled ot ahead of Celeborn and Galadriel? Maybe I have overseens omething, but I read no quote that indicates that.

When it says EVEN ELROND in the quote I have previously provided.

Yes, but only because of Ulmos help, I gess he could make very elf fly if he wants.

No that was the first time, but after that she learned the tongue of birds and the ability to fly, which is a great display of her innate power.

You have a point, I don´t have the letter for me and just saw the passage. But I think that could be a coincedence, he just points out that before leaving for Aman they have to make their choice. Arwen wasn´t even born at that time after the War of Wrath so was Elrond. I´m sure there are simililar passages, where Tolkien doesn´t make a difference.

No there really are not. He always likes to differentiate. For instance Earendil is called the greatest of the Half-elven.

Or when he receives a letter claiming that Arwen was an elf he quickly dismisses this.

Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights. Galadriel
('Glittering garland') is the chief elvish woman mentioned in The Lord of the Rings; her daughter
was Celebrían ('Silver queen'). There was also Nimrodel.-letter 345

It doesn´t show that he would have eternal life (which he doesn´t have at all, they just have long lifespans) it shows that he Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar

I have found this quote:
I again don´t have the compleate letter but Elrond was urged too, like Gil Galad and Celimbrimbur but they denied, and in that what I see at this point Elrond is not excluded. Like I said, the first quote was coincidence.

Where does it even remotely suggest Elrond was under the ban or urged to comeback? In fact the story implies the opposite. Elrond much like Cirdan seemed to have had a special mission to stay in Middle Earth. Elrond to ensure that men could come into their own in the fourth age. Why else would the Valar send Glorfindel to personally aid him if he was still defying their orders?

sure Boromir was wrong on many things, but Tolkien says through Boromir that she read his thoughts. Even it it´s illegal, it´s possible.
Bt still Tolkiens said The Valar are not able to read the thoghts of other Valar, but of lesser being, like Elves or Men.

You just have to read the chapter, there is no question if she read their thoughts or not.

As I said it is not possible. Read through the book and there are several circumstances of the same thing being said about Gandalf, Aragorn and even Denethor.

That apart by equal beings, he meant all rational creatures created by Eru from Hobbits to dwarves all the way up to the Valar. I can provide the quote if you want extra proof.

Elrond in particularly was a great power that alone without any ring, was able to create and enchantment around Rivendell (along with his army) that not even Sauron with the one ring could break.

The last Elf-Kingdom of Gilgalad is maintained precariously on the extreme westshores,
where are the havens of the Ships. Elrond the Half-elven, son of Earendil, maintains a kind
of enchanted sanctuary at Imladris (in English Rivendell) on the extreme eastern margin of the
western lands.-Letter 131

[radagastly]

Originally posted by cellurdur:

No she cannot.

Elrond could see more of the future than Galadriel and so could Cirdan. The mirror is not something you could use at will to see whatever you wanted. Nobody knew what they would see and the visions did not always come true.

Actually, the Mirror was only completely random when she allowed it to be.
From The Fellowship of the Ring, The Mirror of Galadriel:

"Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal," she answered, "and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be. But which it is that he sees, even the wise cannot always tell."

She clearly had enough control over the Mirror to see what she wished to see, mixed in with other images. The problem was in sorting them out, making sense of them once they were seen. And of course, images of the future might or might not come true.

"Remember that the Mirror shows many things, and not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The Mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds."

[elbenprincess]

The quote shows that Elrond is especially held in high regard in foresight. He alone is singled out as the most surprising that Cirdan had greater foresight.

“He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.” -LOTR

Only because he said "not even Elrond" means that Galadriel is inferior to him?!?! There could be thousand reasons. I don´t know the context, but maybe they were in Rivendel at this point when gandalf said it and he said it to be poilte and respectful to the lord of the house. The most obvious reason could be, that they dot know Galadriel yet. If he wold say "not even Galadriel" they wold have no idea who he is referring to. Unless the conversation takes place after they went through Lorien, then my argument would be moot.
That tiny bit is hardly the prove of him being superior.

You can not provide any quote which says explicitly that he has the greatest foresight save Cirdan or that he is called by Tolkien "the greatest loremaster"

Elrond symbolises throughout the ancient wisdom, and his House represents Lore – the preservation in reverent memory of all tradition concerning the good, wise, and beautiful. It is not a scene of action but of reflection.-Letter 131

Only because he symbolises ancient wisdom and his hose represents Lore, doesn´t mean that he is the wisest person in ME, that would belong to Cirdan, or even Celeborn, if we can believe Galadriel or that he is the greatest loremaster, cause he is never called "the greatest loremaster of ME" Rivendell just happens to contain the most important artefacts of the past, therefore his house represents lore.
Galadriel would to have acces to that lore, being often in Rivendell and even in Valinor she was eager to learn everything what the Valar cold teach her, wanted to learn even more, one reason she left Aman and then went on lerning with Melian. I dobt her thrist for knowlege vanished.

Where does it even remotely suggest Elrond was under the ban or urged to comeback? In fact the story implies the opposite. Elrond much like Cirdan seemed to have had a special mission to stay in Middle Earth. Elrond to ensure that men could come into their own in the fourth age. Why else would the Valar send Glorfindel to personally aid him if he was still defying their orders?

'The passing 'oversea' to Eressea (an isle within sight of Aman) was permitted to, and indeed urged upon, all Elves remaining in Middle-earth after the downfall of Morgoth in Angband.' Morgoth's Ring

I never said that he was baned, I just thought that he was counciled to go to Aman, but I couldn´t find it, so it is probably not canon.
But in this quote he doesn´t differ, but still Elrond was among the elves who were welcome to go west.

"Elrond much like Cirdan seemed to have had a special mission to stay in Middle Earth."

Sure, Elrond had his purpose and the Valar were happy to have him in ME, but the same could be said of Galadriel.
IMHO you make Elrond too special.
Many elves had their part in overthrowing Sauron. Without Galadriels aid the quest would have failed, the Valar were aware of that and for all her efforts she was pardoned and honoured by the Valar.

Elrond the Half-elven, son of Earendil, maintains a kind
of enchanted sanctuary at Imladris

It says a kind of enchanted sanctary, that gives me the impression, that the "enchanted term" rather refers to Rivendell, but more to the atmosphere that was special, in contrast to the unconquerable borders like it is said when speaking about Galadriels realm.
I don´t get the feeling that it refers to the same power that surrounded and safed Lorien.

Tolkien is here again very ambiguous, he doesn´t go further into detail, it´s not as convincing than the quote regarding Galadriel and Lorien who would only fall if Sauron comes there in person.

Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur; but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

No that was the first time, but after that she learned the tongue of birds and the ability to fly, which is a great display of her innate power.

Yes, later on Elwing was still able to fly but only due to the spell Ulmo put over her, that would last forever, or at least as long as he intends.
I don´t think that she was transformed one time and by sheer good fortune was later able to do it all alone. IMHO it was Ulmos gift to her.
Therefore it doesn´t show her innate power, it would have been if she was doing it without Ulmo at all, like Luthien, when she was shapeshifting. But Ulmo could probably make it for every elf possible to turn into a dowe and then back to elf. I don´t think it ever happened again, so that makes her special, the only elf who can fly.

That apart by equal beings, he meant all rational creatures created by Eru from Hobbits to dwarves all the way up to the Valar. I can provide the quote if you want extra proof.

That would be nice.

Even if she didn´t visit or take part in some of the events, she can see everything that she wants with her mirror, how Beren meat Luthien, how Sauron lost his ring and Gondolin, how it was bilt and destroyed.

No she cannot.

Yes she can.

'Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,' she answered, 'and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, things that yet may be. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?'

So she has absolutly control over her mirror, she can see in the mirror the past crystal clear, (that is a better tool to lore than everything that is archieved in Rivendel) present anyway, and the future, but there she knows that she has to be careful if she want´s to act on that, cause that again could change the future, cause IMHO the future is variable.
So she is able to see the future, while Elrond it "just" stated to have forsight but never is he, so that no question is left, stated as second to Cirdan regarding forsight.

If you ask for the greatest of the Noldor, then you have quotes which are definite, there is no discussion (actually there is, but that is not the point, Tolkien said so and that´s all what matters).
Regarding Elrond coupled with forsight and greatness in lore, those definite quotes are not existent. The quotes you provided are arguable, cause not one actually states that "Elrond is second to Cirdan in foresight and the greatest loremaster in ME".

I have no problem to be put right, if I missed something.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Only because he said "not even Elrond" means that Galadriel is inferior to him?!?! There could be thousand reasons. I don´t know the context, but maybe they were in Rivendel at this point when gandalf said it and he said it to be poilte and respectful to the lord of the house. The most obvious reason could be, that they dot know Galadriel yet. If he wold say "not even Galadriel" they wold have no idea who he is referring to. Unless the conversation takes place after they went through Lorien, then my argument would be moot.
That tiny bit is hardly the prove of him being superior.

Gandalf has no problem referring to people Frodo has not heard of like Saruman. Anyway besides that there is the other quote again specifically saying EVEN ELROND. Twice when it comes to foresight Elrond is placed before Galadriel.

You can not provide any quote which says explicitly that he has the greatest foresight save Cirdan or that he is called by Tolkien "the greatest loremaster"

I have already provided you the quote showing he was the greatest lore master. Here it is again. I feel like I am just repeating myself.

This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the elves of a far norther dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters." -LOTR

Only because he symbolises ancient wisdom and his hose represents Lore, doesn´t mean that he is the wisest person in ME, that would belong to Cirdan, or even Celeborn, if we can believe Galadriel or that he is the greatest loremaster, cause he is never called "the greatest loremaster of ME" Rivendell just happens to contain the most important artefacts of the past, therefore his house represents lore.
Galadriel would to have acces to that lore, being often in Rivendell and even in Valinor she was eager to learn everything what the Valar cold teach her, wanted to learn even more, one reason she left Aman and then went on lerning with Melian. I dobt her thrist for knowlege vanished.

I have already shown you a quote showing he is the greatest lore master. Provided many other quotes saying he alone remembered the ancient stories etc.
[QUOTE]
I never said that he was baned, I just thought that he was counciled to go to Aman, but I couldn´t find it, so it is probably not canon.
But in this quote he doesn´t differ, but still Elrond was among the elves who were welcome to go west.[?QUOTE]
Elrond was one of the Half-elven. You seem to miss this fact. How do you think his children were allowed to stay in Middle Earth until he left if the Valar did not wish for him to remain?

"Elrond much like Cirdan seemed to have had a special mission to stay in Middle Earth."

Sure, Elrond had his purpose and the Valar were happy to have him in ME, but the same could be said of Galadriel.
IMHO you make Elrond too special.
Many elves had their part in overthrowing Sauron. Without Galadriels aid the quest would have failed, the Valar were aware of that and for all her efforts she was pardoned and honoured by the Valar.

Yes many people helped in the overthrowing of Sauron including Galadriel and this was why her ban was overturned. The situation is different from Elrond, who seems to have remained to help assure in the age of Men.

It says a kind of enchanted sanctary, that gives me the impression, that the "enchanted term" rather refers to Rivendell, but more to the atmosphere that was special, in contrast to the unconquerable borders like it is said when speaking about Galadriels realm.
I don´t get the feeling that it refers to the same power that surrounded and safed Lorien.

Tolkien is here again very ambiguous, he doesn´t go further into detail, it´s not as convincing than the quote regarding Galadriel and Lorien who would only fall if Sauron comes there in person.

Do you have any idea what happened in the 2nd age? Sauron came in person to Rivendell and could not overthrow it. In fact he decided to go and destroy Lindon, because he STILL could not destroy Rivendell.

Rivendell is special, because Elrond dwells there. You simply don't want to see all the evidence indicating Elrond was the greater power.

Yes, later on Elwing was still able to fly but only due to the spell Ulmo put over her, that would last forever, or at least as long as he intends.
I don´t think that she was transformed one time and by sheer good fortune was later able to do it all alone. IMHO it was Ulmos gift to her.
Therefore it doesn´t show her innate power, it would have been if she was doing it without Ulmo at all, like Luthien, when she was shapeshifting. But Ulmo could probably make it for every elf possible to turn into a dowe and then back to elf. I don´t think it ever happened again, so that makes her special, the only elf who can fly.

Have you actually read what happened? Ulmo once turned her into a swan, but later in Aman she spoke with the birds.

"And it is said that Elwing learned the tongue of birds, who herself had once worn their shape; and they taught her the craft of flight, and her wings were of white and silver-grey. And at times, when Eärendil returning drew near again to Arda, she would fly to meet him, even as she had flown long ago, when she was rescued from the sea. Then the far-sighted among the Elves that dwelt in the Lonely Isle would see her like a white bird, shining, rose-stained in the sunset, as she soared in joy to greet the coming of Vingilot to haven."
-Silmarillion

Just like with Luthien the power comes from her innate strength.

That would be nice.

'equal beings'*
*[marginal note] All rational minds/spirits deriving direct from Eru are equal-in order and in status-though not necessarily 'coeval' or of like original power.-Morgoth's Ring

Yes she can.

Not in the way you are implying. She could flashes of images with not sound and that is all.

So she has absolutly control over her mirror, she can see in the mirror the past crystal clear, (that is a better tool to lore than everything that is archieved in Rivendel) present anyway, and the future, but there she knows that she has to be careful if she want´s to act on that, cause that again could change the future, cause IMHO the future is variable.
So she is able to see the future, while Elrond it "just" stated to have forsight but never is he, so that no question is left, stated as second to Cirdan regarding forsight.

If you ask for the greatest of the Noldor, then you have quotes which are definite, there is no discussion (actually there is, but that is not the point, Tolkien said so and that´s all what matters).
Regarding Elrond coupled with forsight and greatness in lore, those definite quotes are not existent. The quotes you provided are arguable, cause not one actually states that "Elrond is second to Cirdan in foresight and the greatest loremaster in ME".

I have no problem to be put right, if I missed something.

The quotes are all before you and you can make up your own mind. I have shown that Elrond was not one one of the Noldor or even the Eldar, he was one of the Half-Elven and consistently implied or stated to have the greatest power. No point arguing when all the facts are now bare.

[elbenprincess]

During the council in Rivendell Boromir recalls a dream his brother told him where Faramir hears a voice singing to him. Boromir tells the council that “we [Boromir and his brother Faramir] spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters” (LotR: 275). Here we can see that Denethor, a Man, was a lore-master or at the very least a master of the lore of Gondor. We also see that Elrond is a lore-master, not only a lore-master but the greatest lore-master in Middle-earth, at least in Boromir’s opinion.

Boromir was from Gondor and wrong about many things.

You said that, so when he says that Galadriel read his thoughts he is wrong, but when he said that Elrond is the greatest loremaster, then he is right. That is not really consequent.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

You said that, so when he says that Galadriel read his thoughts he is wrong, but when he said that Elrond is the greatest loremaster, then he is right. That is not really consequent.

Once again I gave you part of the relevant quote and not the whole thing. Boromir was a man like the Rohirrm. He was a brilliant fighter, a great general, handsome and charismatic, but not interested in lore and other such details.

Look at the quote again. Boromir repeats it, but it does not come from him. It comes from Denethor. A man, who had often used the Palantir was wise and a throw back to the Numenoreans of old. Not only that, but it is something recorded in ancient Gondor history, not the opinion of Boromir the man.

[elbenprincess]

Even if it is Denethor who said it, it is still only his opinion and it´s not even clear if Denethor knows Galadriel, if his son thinks that Galadriel is an evil witch. That is Denethors opinion, but not Tolkiens. It´s the same like Galadriel saying that Celeborn is the wisest elf, that is her opinion but not neccessarily Tolkiens.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Do you have any idea what happened in the 2nd age? Sauron came in person to Rivendell and could not overthrow it. In fact he decided to go and destroy Lindon, because he STILL could not destroy Rivendell.

Where did you get this from? I do not think this is true from what I remember. Sauron never came to Rivendell. Elrond established it after he and his forces were almost destroyed by Sauron's forces, but was saved in the end by a group of Dwarves and Elves. Sauron left pursuit of Elrond to take on these guys who had attacked him from behind and chased them all the back to Moria where they closed the gates on him. Sauron himself went to destroy Lindon afterwards, leaving behind a strong force to put a siege on Elrond so he would not be attacked from behind again.

I figure you are talking about this force that kept Elrond and his people in check at Imladris? Sauron was not with this force which in the end was destroyed with the aid of the Númenóreans after Gil-galad nearly destroyed Sauron. Sauron did not go to destroy Lindon because he could not take on Elrond. The reason he wanted to take Lindon was to get those Rings of Power the Elves were hiding from him. Elrond he could clearly deal with. Elrond was almost destroyed when Sauron destroyed Eregion, but was saved by another force of Dwarves/Elves.