Arwen vs. Galadriel

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Only because he said "not even Elrond" means that Galadriel is inferior to him?!?! There could be thousand reasons. I don´t know the context, but maybe they were in Rivendel at this point when gandalf said it and he said it to be poilte and respectful to the lord of the house. The most obvious reason could be, that they dot know Galadriel yet. If he wold say "not even Galadriel" they wold have no idea who he is referring to. Unless the conversation takes place after they went through Lorien, then my argument would be moot.
That tiny bit is hardly the prove of him being superior.

Gandalf has no problem referring to people Frodo has not heard of like Saruman. Anyway besides that there is the other quote again specifically saying EVEN ELROND. Twice when it comes to foresight Elrond is placed before Galadriel.

You can not provide any quote which says explicitly that he has the greatest foresight save Cirdan or that he is called by Tolkien "the greatest loremaster"

I have already provided you the quote showing he was the greatest lore master. Here it is again. I feel like I am just repeating myself.

This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the elves of a far norther dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters." -LOTR

Only because he symbolises ancient wisdom and his hose represents Lore, doesn´t mean that he is the wisest person in ME, that would belong to Cirdan, or even Celeborn, if we can believe Galadriel or that he is the greatest loremaster, cause he is never called "the greatest loremaster of ME" Rivendell just happens to contain the most important artefacts of the past, therefore his house represents lore.
Galadriel would to have acces to that lore, being often in Rivendell and even in Valinor she was eager to learn everything what the Valar cold teach her, wanted to learn even more, one reason she left Aman and then went on lerning with Melian. I dobt her thrist for knowlege vanished.

I have already shown you a quote showing he is the greatest lore master. Provided many other quotes saying he alone remembered the ancient stories etc.
[QUOTE]
I never said that he was baned, I just thought that he was counciled to go to Aman, but I couldn´t find it, so it is probably not canon.
But in this quote he doesn´t differ, but still Elrond was among the elves who were welcome to go west.[?QUOTE]
Elrond was one of the Half-elven. You seem to miss this fact. How do you think his children were allowed to stay in Middle Earth until he left if the Valar did not wish for him to remain?

"Elrond much like Cirdan seemed to have had a special mission to stay in Middle Earth."

Sure, Elrond had his purpose and the Valar were happy to have him in ME, but the same could be said of Galadriel.
IMHO you make Elrond too special.
Many elves had their part in overthrowing Sauron. Without Galadriels aid the quest would have failed, the Valar were aware of that and for all her efforts she was pardoned and honoured by the Valar.

Yes many people helped in the overthrowing of Sauron including Galadriel and this was why her ban was overturned. The situation is different from Elrond, who seems to have remained to help assure in the age of Men.

It says a kind of enchanted sanctary, that gives me the impression, that the "enchanted term" rather refers to Rivendell, but more to the atmosphere that was special, in contrast to the unconquerable borders like it is said when speaking about Galadriels realm.
I don´t get the feeling that it refers to the same power that surrounded and safed Lorien.

Tolkien is here again very ambiguous, he doesn´t go further into detail, it´s not as convincing than the quote regarding Galadriel and Lorien who would only fall if Sauron comes there in person.

Do you have any idea what happened in the 2nd age? Sauron came in person to Rivendell and could not overthrow it. In fact he decided to go and destroy Lindon, because he STILL could not destroy Rivendell.

Rivendell is special, because Elrond dwells there. You simply don't want to see all the evidence indicating Elrond was the greater power.

Yes, later on Elwing was still able to fly but only due to the spell Ulmo put over her, that would last forever, or at least as long as he intends.
I don´t think that she was transformed one time and by sheer good fortune was later able to do it all alone. IMHO it was Ulmos gift to her.
Therefore it doesn´t show her innate power, it would have been if she was doing it without Ulmo at all, like Luthien, when she was shapeshifting. But Ulmo could probably make it for every elf possible to turn into a dowe and then back to elf. I don´t think it ever happened again, so that makes her special, the only elf who can fly.

Have you actually read what happened? Ulmo once turned her into a swan, but later in Aman she spoke with the birds.

"And it is said that Elwing learned the tongue of birds, who herself had once worn their shape; and they taught her the craft of flight, and her wings were of white and silver-grey. And at times, when Eärendil returning drew near again to Arda, she would fly to meet him, even as she had flown long ago, when she was rescued from the sea. Then the far-sighted among the Elves that dwelt in the Lonely Isle would see her like a white bird, shining, rose-stained in the sunset, as she soared in joy to greet the coming of Vingilot to haven."
-Silmarillion

Just like with Luthien the power comes from her innate strength.

That would be nice.

'equal beings'*
*[marginal note] All rational minds/spirits deriving direct from Eru are equal-in order and in status-though not necessarily 'coeval' or of like original power.-Morgoth's Ring

Yes she can.

Not in the way you are implying. She could flashes of images with not sound and that is all.

So she has absolutly control over her mirror, she can see in the mirror the past crystal clear, (that is a better tool to lore than everything that is archieved in Rivendel) present anyway, and the future, but there she knows that she has to be careful if she want´s to act on that, cause that again could change the future, cause IMHO the future is variable.
So she is able to see the future, while Elrond it "just" stated to have forsight but never is he, so that no question is left, stated as second to Cirdan regarding forsight.

If you ask for the greatest of the Noldor, then you have quotes which are definite, there is no discussion (actually there is, but that is not the point, Tolkien said so and that´s all what matters).
Regarding Elrond coupled with forsight and greatness in lore, those definite quotes are not existent. The quotes you provided are arguable, cause not one actually states that "Elrond is second to Cirdan in foresight and the greatest loremaster in ME".

I have no problem to be put right, if I missed something.

The quotes are all before you and you can make up your own mind. I have shown that Elrond was not one one of the Noldor or even the Eldar, he was one of the Half-Elven and consistently implied or stated to have the greatest power. No point arguing when all the facts are now bare.

[elbenprincess]

During the council in Rivendell Boromir recalls a dream his brother told him where Faramir hears a voice singing to him. Boromir tells the council that “we [Boromir and his brother Faramir] spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters” (LotR: 275). Here we can see that Denethor, a Man, was a lore-master or at the very least a master of the lore of Gondor. We also see that Elrond is a lore-master, not only a lore-master but the greatest lore-master in Middle-earth, at least in Boromir’s opinion.

Boromir was from Gondor and wrong about many things.

You said that, so when he says that Galadriel read his thoughts he is wrong, but when he said that Elrond is the greatest loremaster, then he is right. That is not really consequent.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

You said that, so when he says that Galadriel read his thoughts he is wrong, but when he said that Elrond is the greatest loremaster, then he is right. That is not really consequent.

Once again I gave you part of the relevant quote and not the whole thing. Boromir was a man like the Rohirrm. He was a brilliant fighter, a great general, handsome and charismatic, but not interested in lore and other such details.

Look at the quote again. Boromir repeats it, but it does not come from him. It comes from Denethor. A man, who had often used the Palantir was wise and a throw back to the Numenoreans of old. Not only that, but it is something recorded in ancient Gondor history, not the opinion of Boromir the man.

[elbenprincess]

Even if it is Denethor who said it, it is still only his opinion and it´s not even clear if Denethor knows Galadriel, if his son thinks that Galadriel is an evil witch. That is Denethors opinion, but not Tolkiens. It´s the same like Galadriel saying that Celeborn is the wisest elf, that is her opinion but not neccessarily Tolkiens.

[elbenprincess]

Provided many other quotes saying he alone remembered the ancient stories etc.

I can´t remember reading such a quote provided by you and anyway how can he alone remember the anchient stories better or more in detail, than a more ancient person (Galadriel) or do you mean the quote, that his house represents lore? That is hardly convincing.

The situation is different from Elrond, who seems to have remained to help assure in the age of Men.

Galadriel stayed too becase she wanted see Sauron fall and because Men were important to her. Of course she was banned but even if not, she would not leave ME.

But eventually Galadriel became aware that Sauron again, as in the ancient days of the captivity of Melkor, had been left behind. Or rather, since Sauron had as yet no single name, and his operations had not been perceived to proceed from a single evil spirit, prime servant of Melkor, she perceived that there was an evil controlling purpose abroad in the world, and that it seemed to proceed from a source further to the East, beyond Eriador and the Misty Mountains

In any case, Galadriel was more far-sighted in this than Celeborn; and she perceived from the beginning that Middle-earth could not be saved from "the residue of evil" that Morgoth had left behind him save by a union of all the peoples who were in their way and in their measure opposed to him

So, she had the same reason to stay as Elrond.

Do you have any idea what happened in the 2nd age? Sauron came in person to Rivendell and could not overthrow it. In fact he decided to go and destroy Lindon, because he STILL could not destroy Rivendell.

Actually I thought I know pretty much what happened in the 2nd age but that Sauron came in person to Rivendell is new to me. I searched the Sil and the Internet but I couldn´t find that it was Sauron himself, I just found that:

Angered by this setback, Sauron loosed the hordes of Mordor, six hundred years in the building, and overran Eriador, destroying the land of Eregion where the Rings were made. The Elves called on Númenor for aid, though, and the army of Tar-Minastir put Sauron's forces to rout. After this reverse, Sauron sought instead to build power in the eastern countries, and left the Westlands in peace for many centuries.

True, Elrond and his troops were able to drive Saurons host away, but that happened in many other regions of ME also under Gil-galad, the havens for example were safed. I think the defeat of Saurons troops was more a military act and not very much magic (the rings were not made for war anyway). It´s not like in the third age, where not many elves were left, Elrond would have an army in the second age.

I don´t found anything that indicates that Sauron was in Rivendel.

Many more refugees joined Elrond's host as Sauron ravaged Eriador during the course of the war. By S.A. 1700, Imladris, despite being besieged, was the only part of Eriador not under Sauron's control. It was liberated after Gil-galad's forces, strengthened by the armament sent by Tar-Minastir, routed Sauron's armies and drove him out of Eriador.

Yes, it says that Rivendel was besieged but not that Sauron was there in person and could not enter.

In fact he decided to go and destroy Lindon, because he STILL could not destroy Rivendell.

He wanted to destroy Lindon anyway, together with the havens, independent of Rivedell.

Sauron besieged Imladris, battled Moria and Lothlórien, and pushed further into Gil-galad's realm.

He can hardy be everywhere at the same time, so if it says Saruron besieged Imladris it would be his troops in his name, unless there is a quote which says "Sauron was in person in Rivendel".

You simply don't want to see all the evidence indicating Elrond was the greater power.

There is no indication that he is the greatest power, unless you accept this "expecially Elrond" in this one letter. But that letter is debatable, many have differnet opinions regarding that. Also again, it´s vague.

This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters” (LotR: 275)

-Boromir

It almost logic that Elrond would be considered the greatest loremaster, he is the most well known, while hardly no one knows Galadriel or has a completely wrong image about her.

In this case I can´t take Bormiers/Denethors opinion serious. Had Gandalf said it, then it wold be another matter but that is not the same as the "not even Elrond can fortell!

I have no problem accepting it but all the quotes you provided one can interpret differntly, there is no explicit statement, such as "Elrond was the greatest power besides the Maiar in ME" or something like that.

Elrond can never be superior to the equal of Feanor, (Galadriel) cause Feanor was the mightiest of the children of Eru (save Luthien). The top 3 of Erus children are definite!

Number 2 and 3 are Feanor and Galadriel, number 1 is Luthien.

'These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor,* were unfriends for ever.'

*Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

That I would call a explicit statement. There is no wiggle room.

Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the elves.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I can´t remember reading such a quote provided by you and anyway how can he alone remember the anchient stories better or more in detail, than a more ancient person (Galadriel) or do you mean the quote, that his house represents lore? That is hardly convincing.

No that was just one of several quotes I have provided. Here it is again.

'I will tell you the tale of Tinueviel.... and there are none now except Elrond, that remember it aright as it was told of old.

Galadriel stayed too becase she wanted see Sauron fall and because Men were important to her. Of course she was banned but even if not, she would not leave ME.

That is the difference. Elrond stayed probably in accord with the Valar's wishes much like Cirdan. Galadriel was banned.

So, she had the same reason to stay as Elrond.

Partly, but she also greatly desired to rule Earth and it was not with the Valar's blessing she was staying.

Actually I thought I know pretty much what happened in the 2nd age but that Sauron came in person to Rivendell is new to me. I searched the Sil and the Internet but I couldn´t find that it was Sauron himself, I just found that:



True, Elrond and his troops were able to drive Saurons host away, but that happened in many other regions of ME also under Gil-galad, the havens for example were safed. I think the defeat of Saurons troops was more a military act and not very much magic (the rings were not made for war anyway). It´s not like in the third age, where not many elves were left, Elrond would have an army in the second age.

I don´t found anything that indicates that Sauron was in Rivendel.

Yes, it says that Rivendel was besieged but not that Sauron was there in person and could not enter.

He wanted to destroy Lindon anyway, together with the havens, independent of Rivedell.

He can hardy be everywhere at the same time, so if it says Saruron besieged Imladris it would be his troops in his name, unless there is a quote which says "Sauron was in person in Rivendel".

I hope this does not come across as rude, but you shouldn't just search the net looking for quotes, but read through the entire text. This way you can get the whole picture.

Sauron personally killed Celebrimbor and personally drove Elrond back to Rivendell, where he was unable to break through.

Leaving a huge army on your back is awful tactics in war and Sauron only did so, becaue he wanted the Elvish rings to strengthen his position. When the Numenoreans attacked, Sauron himself almost was killed personally.

In th letters Tolkien clarifies that Elrond's enchantment is what kept Rivendell safe.

There is no indication that he is the greatest power, unless you accept this "expecially Elrond" in this one letter. But that letter is debatable, many have differnet opinions regarding that. Also again, it´s vague

There are many other quotes.

-Boromir

It almost logic that Elrond would be considered the greatest loremaster, he is the most well known, while hardly no one knows Galadriel or has a completely wrong image about her.

In this case I can´t take Bormiers/Denethors opinion serious. Had Gandalf said it, then it wold be another matter but that is not the same as the "not even Elrond can fortell!

I have no problem accepting it but all the quotes you provided one can interpret differntly, there is no explicit statement, such as "Elrond was the greatest power besides the Maiar in ME" or something like that.

Elrond can never be superior to the equal of Feanor, (Galadriel) cause Feanor was the mightiest of the children of Eru (save Luthien). The top 3 of Erus children are definite!

Number 2 and 3 are Feanor and Galadriel, number 1 is Luthien.



That I would call a explicit statement. There is no wiggle room.

Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the elves.

Gondor's ancient records and Denethor were well aware of Galadriel. If they praised Elrond, then it was because he was worthy of such praise.

You keep brining old quotes, which have been dismissed.

Greatest does not mean the mightiest.
Elrond is not one of the Noldor or even the Eldar.
We have gone full circle now and there is no point continuing. You are bringing up quotes I gave reasons against right at the start of the discussion.

[elbenprincess]

you keep brining old quotes, which have been dismissed.

Greatest does not mean the mightiest.
Elrond is not one of the Noldor or even the Eldar.
We have gone full circle now and there is no point continuing. You are bringing up quotes I gave reasons against right at the start of the discussion.

Greatness does include many things, it depends on how a person would define greatness. For me greatness contains innate power, political power, deeds, intelligence and might as well.

I pretty much aware that Elrond is not one of the Noldor or Eldar, but if Galadriel bestes the likes of Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon and every other elf of Valinor and is on par with Feanor (in many things, not only greatness, but even might) then that says everything or would you claim that Elrond is superiour to all the great Noldor like Fingolfin or on par with Feanor himself, whose only equal it is said is Galadriel?

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Do you have any idea what happened in the 2nd age? Sauron came in person to Rivendell and could not overthrow it. In fact he decided to go and destroy Lindon, because he STILL could not destroy Rivendell.

Where did you get this from? I do not think this is true from what I remember. Sauron never came to Rivendell. Elrond established it after he and his forces were almost destroyed by Sauron's forces, but was saved in the end by a group of Dwarves and Elves. Sauron left pursuit of Elrond to take on these guys who had attacked him from behind and chased them all the back to Moria where they closed the gates on him. Sauron himself went to destroy Lindon afterwards, leaving behind a strong force to put a siege on Elrond so he would not be attacked from behind again.

I figure you are talking about this force that kept Elrond and his people in check at Imladris? Sauron was not with this force which in the end was destroyed with the aid of the Númenóreans after Gil-galad nearly destroyed Sauron. Sauron did not go to destroy Lindon because he could not take on Elrond. The reason he wanted to take Lindon was to get those Rings of Power the Elves were hiding from him. Elrond he could clearly deal with. Elrond was almost destroyed when Sauron destroyed Eregion, but was saved by another force of Dwarves/Elves.