Game Thread - WW XCIIX - The Meaning Of Death

[the phantom]

Nighty-night, people. Hope to read your thoughts early tomorrow.

[Mänwe]

Good morning, ah looks as though a number of us haven't woken yet. Well if at the moment we're to be building a consensus on phantom's dream list then i'll not object, I don't see any drawbacks.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by tp

So- Amandil reveals, Anarion protects him, Elendil sends him a dream tonight, tomorrow Amandil reveals the result, then the night after the King's Men are forced to decide whether to kill him and hand an Ordo a trusted gifted and miss a chance to kill the other Gifteds....

Any drawbacks to that?

Well, it does effectively give the King's Men a free shot at anyone else toNight– but that probably doesn't matter much at this stage of the game.

Originally Posted by tp

And how about my Elendil plan you two? Do you see any drawbacks to everyone randomly listing 3 "guilty" names each day thus providing Elendil a clear indication on whether his dream recipient found his dream target to be guilty?

To use the two of you as an example, Shasta is Elendil and selects Nerwen to dream of Phantom. She finds me to be innocent (but of course ). So the following day she (along with everyone else) posts a 3-name Elendil list- in her case let's say she posts Shasta-Inzil-Morsul.

So Elendil (Shasta) looks at her list and notices that his dream target (Phantom) is not on it, thus clearly indicating that- so long as Nerwen is not a lying baddie, Phantom is innocent.

There's no way the baddies could really spot anything under that system, correct? They certainly couldn't trace it to Elendil, but frankly I don't think they could even spot the dream recipient on a given day, as each person's guilt-list would randomly change every day and there would be bound to be countless correct answers on a given day.

...unless hardly anybody posts that Day, in which case the dream-recipient would be left without cover– had you thought of that?

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

...unless hardly anybody posts that Day, in which case the dream-recipient would be left without cover– had you thought of that?

But people who don't post during the day run the risk of modfire no? I thought he'd be making the assumption that even if someone posts just the once then it should include this list.

~~

Boro, the point of tp's idea would be a way of communicating the role of the "dreamt" to Elendil without the "dreamer" and "dreamt" being given away too easily. This chain you speak of is fine in the event of Amandil revealing himself- and are you assuming that he then explicitly states the role of the "dreamt"? That makes that person an immediate target for the Kings Men and killing them (in the case that it was an innocent) off in the night would then break the chain resulting in Elendil having to make a stab in the dark as to who he chooses to send a dream to next.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mänwe

But people who don't post during the day run the risk of modfire no? I thought he'd be making the assumption that even if someone posts just the once then it should include this list.

Oh, I agree it all works in theory– but participation hasn't been great in recent games, and I can all too clearly imagine a scenario where half the village does those "no time to read the thread, must fly" posts.

Originally Posted by Mänwe

Boro, the point of tp's idea would be a way of communicating the role of the "dreamt" to Elendil without the "dreamer" and "dreamt" being given away too easily. This chain you speak of is fine in the event of Amandil revealing himself- and are you assuming that he then explicitly states the role of the "dreamt"? That makes that person an immediate target for the Kings Men and killing them (in the case that it was an innocent) off in the night would then break the chain resulting in Elendil having to make a stab in the dark as to who he chooses to send a dream to next.

Yes– but we do have a Ranger. That's what they're for, after all.

EDIT:x'd with Morsul.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mänwe

Boro, the point of tp's idea would be a way of communicating the role of the "dreamt" to Elendil without the "dreamer" and "dreamt" being given away too easily. This chain you speak of is fine in the event of Amandil revealing himself- and are you assuming that he then explicitly states the role of the "dreamt"? That makes that person an immediate target for the Kings Men and killing them (in the case that it was an innocent) off in the night would then break the chain resulting in Elendil having to make a stab in the dark as to who he chooses to send a dream to next.

Not necessarily. Still only Elendil and Amandil would know the person who was dreamed. Say Elendil chooses Brinn and sends it to the revealed Amandil. Only Elendil and Amandil would know it was Brinn. Amandil wouldn't have directly announce the next day "Brinn is innocent" to let Elendil know this. Amandil can disguise the result easily enough in his posts to let Elendil know the result and thus proceed from there. And as Nerwen pointed out, there's also the Ranger.

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Oh, I agree it all works in theory– but participation hasn't been great in recent games, and I can all too clearly imagine a scenario where half the village does those "no time to read the thread, must fly" posts.


Yes– but we do have a Ranger. That's what they're for, after all.

EDIT:x'd with Morsul.

Ah well fair point, but if the purpose is merely to pick three random names- were it to be agree- i'm sure they could manage it in a "fly by post"..which leads me onto your next point about the Ranger as per Boro

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Not necessarily. Still only Elendil and Amandil would know the person who was dreamed. Say Elendil chooses Brinn and sends it to the revealed Amandil. Only Elendil and Amandil would know it was Brinn. Amandil wouldn't have directly announce the next day "Brinn is innocent" to let Elendil know this. Amandil can disguise the result easily enough in his posts to let Elendil know the result and thus proceed from there. And as Nerwen pointed out, there's also the Ranger.

Hehe he might have just slipped my mind but yes true i'm sure it could be disguised its just with the Ranger not being able to save the same person twice in a row anyone outed would be dead the night after if the Kings Men so choose or could be eliminated in their hunt for the other special roles if they're prioritising.

I wondering can identities be passed on secretively and successfully or do they often become so cryptic the intended recipient is none the wiser? My point is though the list of three before night falls is still a good idea to continue.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Yes indeed! I was just about to post-> "Does posting first mean I found the body first? Uh-oh" or something similar.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ah, well, I'll have to be third, then.

That's the spirit! Well, that's the game, then.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Frankly it makes me wonder if Amandil shouldn't just be super bold right from the start. I mean, that way we won't lynch him and if the baddies kill him they know that the result will be Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion surviving the night plus a random Ordo will know to trust one of them due to the death-power.

Leave it to tp to induce a headache this early!

Hm. I need to look it over carefully. The main issue I see is trusting the "revealed" Amandil. I think it's certainly something to consider, but ultimately it's Amandil's decision.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Still only Elendil and Amandil would know the person who was dreamed. Say Elendil chooses Brinn and sends it to the revealed Amandil. Only Elendil and Amandil would know it was Brinn. Amandil wouldn't have directly announce the next day "Brinn is innocent" to let Elendil know this. Amandil can disguise the result easily enough in his posts to let Elendil know the result and thus proceed from there. And as Nerwen pointed out, there's also the Ranger.

If Elendil can glean that information from Amandil's post, then presumably so could anyone else. Just something to keep in mind.

x/d with Mänwe

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If Elendil can glean that information from Amandil's post, then presumably so could anyone else. Just something to keep in mind.
x/d with Mänwe

Yes, also what I was getting at.

[the phantom]

So, we're done on the Amandil issue then? Everyone agrees he can step forward? (We'll trust his reveal, Inzil, because what KM would fake reveal on Day 1 with a potential counter-reveal out there?)

Regarding the Elendil list, the main concern is that people's participation sucks? Ugh, that's really really annoying. It seems this game has changed since I last played...

Ah, well. If the rest of you don't mind, I'm going to do it anyway. At least that way if I happen to be selected as a recipient I'll have an established method for passing the info back. I suppose everyone else can do their own thing, so long as they believe it will work.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Hey guys, how about those Elves, eh? I sure do appreciate those Elves. No question about that.

I am trying to work out how Phantom's plan could be used against the village, should he be evil. I don't think there is a way, and I'm inclined to agree with everything he said earlier.

But I need to think on it a bit more, because you can never fully trust a talented werewolver.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Should that be werewolfer? I think so.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Hm. I need to look it over carefully. The main issue I see is trusting the "revealed" Amandil. I think it's certainly something to consider, but ultimately it's Amandil's decision.

What tp said here, and why would a KM fake reveal when the only tradeoff is to possibly lynch Amandil? The fake could flop and lynch the KM, then everyone would know the real Amandil. In the event of the KM fake revealing and getting the real Amandil lynched, everyone knows one KM. Which would essentially leave 2 remaining KM to deal with Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion who are more powerful gifteds than Amandil. (No offense to Amandil). And the worst case scenario if the KM's fake reveal is successfu to lynching Amandil, then a random ordo will know learn who Elendil is.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Regarding the Elendil list, the main concern is that people's participation sucks? Ugh, that's really really annoying. It seems this game has changed since I last played...

Ah, well. If the rest of you don't mind, I'm going to do it anyway. At least that way if I happen to be selected as a recipient I'll have an established method for passing the info back. I suppose everyone else can do their own thing, so long as they believe it will work.

The problem is it requires everyone not only doing it, but remembering to do it every day. It adds another task to complete, and I could honestly see just forgetting to do it. And I don't want that to further lead anyone thinking "Oh Boro didn't create his list for Elendil, must be an obstinate KM." I'm fine with doing it myself, but I don't think it's necessary to have a hardline mandatory agreement to do it.

I will say, if we go forward with Amandil revealing (which ultimately will be up to Amandil now). Then the next day Amandil should do the "Guilty Elendil list," which should successfully transfer the dreamed of person to Elendil, and at the same time hide the dream from the KM. There isn't any further risk to Amandil, since he would be already revealed anyways. This making any sense?

[Pomegranate]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Not necessarily. Still only Elendil and Amandil would know the person who was dreamed. Say Elendil chooses Brinn and sends it to the revealed Amandil. Only Elendil and Amandil would know it was Brinn. Amandil wouldn't have directly announce the next day "Brinn is innocent" to let Elendil know this. Amandil can disguise the result easily enough in his posts to let Elendil know the result and thus proceed from there. And as Nerwen pointed out, there's also the Ranger.

Which means that, especially in the case of Amandil if not afterwards, Amandil could pretty explicitly just state "I dreamed of an innocent", since only Amandil and Elendil would know who's being thus labeled - no need for too much secret coding. Obviously the name of a KM can be shared. After Amandil the rest would need to be more concealed, and indeed the lists that tp suggested could come in handy. If we do want to keep them concealed - stating explicitly known innocents would indeed, as mentioned, put the KM in the situation where they either have to accept the amount of unknown roles getting smaller and smaller, as well as facing the threat of being found themselves, while hunting for Elendil; or keep killing the known innocents and know that nothing threats Elendil apart from lynch. If the innocents will stay known only to Elendil (and the current dreamer), there is the danger that when Elendil dies we are left with very little trustworthy information.

Regarding participation, it seems like there is more potential in this game than there has been in the past few. And anyone has time to put up a randomised list. If it would become a habit for everyone, I think it would also be harder to forget, as you'd keep seeing the lists in every post in the first part of the day.

I'd say yes to Amandil revealing. I'd also agree to lists today at the very least.

Just to confirm, there's no CC, right?

And just in case - if a KM decides to do a fake-reveal, Amandil, at least counter that! Otherwise we're stuck with a lot of problematicly full trust to a KM, and potentially to a chain of people after that.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Correct P, there is no CC.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

What tp said here, and why would a KM fake reveal when the only tradeoff is to possibly lynch Amandil? The fake could flop and lynch the KM, then everyone would know the real Amandil. In the event of the KM fake revealing and getting the real Amandil lynched, everyone knows one KM. Which would essentially leave 2 remaining KM to deal with Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion who are more powerful gifteds than Amandil. (No offense to Amandil). And the worst case scenario if the KM's fake reveal is successfu to lynching Amandil, then a random ordo will know learn who Elendil is.

Well, I didn't say the possibility of a fake reveal should prevent the plan, it was just a thought I had.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The problem is it requires everyone not only doing it, but remembering to do it every day. It adds another task to complete, and I could honestly see just forgetting to do it. And I don't want that to further lead anyone thinking "Oh Boro didn't create his list for Elendil, must be an obstinate KM." I'm fine with doing it myself, but I don't think it's necessary to have a hardline mandatory agreement to do it.

But if everyone doesn't do the lists consistently, couldn't that be a means to for all to see the dream-recipient? I mean, if someone hasn't been doing it, then suddenly does it once, then stops again, wouldn't that expose them? I would think it would have to be done by all. Then again, maybe I'm missing something.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Which means that, especially in the case of Amandil if not afterwards, Amandil could pretty explicitly just state "I dreamed of an innocent", since only Amandil and Elendil would know who's being thus labeled - no need for too much secret coding. Obviously the name of a KM can be shared. After Amandil the rest would need to be more concealed, and indeed the lists that tp suggested could come in handy.

Aye Amandil saying "I saw an innocent" or "I saw a KM" would also be the same as everyone creating an Elendil list. Either way, as long as it's done uniformly and consistently, that way there is no confusion with relaying dreams to Elendil then let's go with it.

If we do want to keep them concealed - stating explicitly known innocents would indeed, as mentioned, put the KM in the situation where they either have to accept the amount of unknown roles getting smaller and smaller, as well as facing the threat of being found themselves, while hunting for Elendil; or keep killing the known innocents and know that nothing threats Elendil apart from lynch. If the innocents will stay known only to Elendil (and the current dreamer), there is the danger that when Elendil dies we are left with very little trustworthy information.

Here's how I'm thinking about it...

Currently Elendil has one dream and sent it to one person. I would hope Elendil could rely on the information, but there's no way for Elendil to know this for sure. From what I understand, Elendil can double-check and send the same name to a different person, but that's wasting dream choices. And further, there would be no way for Elendil to know which person was telling the truth if he sent 2 people the same name and they relayed conflicting info.

Amandil revealing would establish that reliable chain of dreams. So, to expand on my earlier example.

1. Amandil reveals today, Elendil dreams Brinn and sends it to Amandil.

2. Amandil either with creating the list that's been talked about or just saying "I saw an innocent" will let Elendil know Brinn's innocent and it would not give the trail away to the KM.

3. Elendil proceeds to give the next name to Brinn and it continues on from there...

Now to your point Pom, what if in #3, Elendil is killed in the night. We could still follow the chain from Amandil who could say "The innocent I saw was Brinn" and then we would know to trust Brinn saying "I saw an innocent/KM." It wouldn't do much good for the KM to kill Amandil because the leaves Elendil still who could keep dreaming and continue the line of trustworthy dreams from Brinn.

This would seem to put under Elendil extreme risk of being discovered and having no Ranger protection, with Anarion being occupied protecting the dream-recipients (the innocent ones). Ideally it would be great to give Elendil as many chances as possible, but at the same time, there needs to be an established way to make sure Elendil is actually being relayed trustworthy dreams, otherwise Elendil (and thus the rest of us) is left in the dark, unsure if the relayed information is true or not.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, it does effectively give the King's Men a free shot at anyone else toNight– but that probably doesn't matter much at this stage of the game.

Aye it would give the KM one free crack to kill Elendil and spoil the whole point of Amandil revealing. But with the chance to set up a system where Elendil can trust the dreams being relayed back to him, I think it would still be worth it.

If Amandil doesn't reveal it frees up Anarion to protect whoever, but it leaves Elendil with no basis of knowing if the people receiving the dreams can be trusted. Worst case scenario in the event of Elendil gets killed anyway is we're basically left with nothing.

If Amandil does reveal, and Elendil does go ahead sending the next dream to Amandil, Anarion would be pretty much obligated to protect Amandil and ensure the dream is "safe." This leaves the KM one free crack, and in worst case scenario they kill Elendil but we go to the next day having a trusted Amandil with one reliable dream. And in the event they don't get Elendil, then it sets up the system to get a chain of relaying trustworthy information back to Elendil.

Edit: crossed with Morsul and Nerwen

[Boromir88]

Amandil revealing, I think, would optimize his role. Since for all intents and purposes he's an ordo, but if he dies then the next in Amandil's line (at this point it would be Elendil) would be revealed to a randomly selected ordo.

The main difficulty is Elendil doesn't know if the person he selects to give the dream to each night is trustworthy. However, if Amandil were to reveal now, then it would set up a nice line of reveals that Elendil could trust.

Because going with the phantom's plan. If Amandil revealed today, and Anarion protects Amandil at night. Elendil could trust Amandil revealing the role of the person dreamed the next day. If it's a KM then perfect. But if it's not, say if Elendil picked someone who was revealed innocent to Amandil. Since the dream would go to Amandil, Elendil would know to trust it, and if the dream turns up innocent, then Elendil could send the next dream to that innocent, again knowing he could trust the result. And the process continues from there, setting up a way for Elendil to trust the information.

I like it.

As far as everyone making an "Elendil's list" (if the dreamed person is not on it = innocent. If dreamed person is on it = KM), I don't see much of a purpose. Perhaps it would be good today for everyone to do. Since only Elendil knows the person he picked and then to whom it would be revealed to. So then, Elendil will just have to decide whether to trust that person. However, if we go ahead with the Amandil reveal plan, then I don't see the benefit of continuing with everyone making an randomly generated "Elendil list." Since that, as I said above would set up a system that Elendil could trust completely.

It's not that I see any harm of it, but more of a hassle without any real benefit. I mean, I could see that I wouldn't be the only one who would turn Bombadil and in complete earnest just forget to make the list on some days. I suppose it would cover the tracks back to Elendil, but we'd already be setting up a track back to Elendil with Amandil revealing today and Elendil then sending Amandil the next person...right? The problem for the KM would be having a known and trusted innocent in Amandil, possibly Amandil giving another known and trusted innocent the next day (or a KM to lynch), as well as trying to find a way to break the chain, which as far as I can tell, could only be achieved by killing Elendil immediately.

I don't have anything against everyone doing it (it should be done today), but the question is would everyone remember to make the list for Elendil every day? And would someone necessarily be a KM if they forget? Seems like more of a hassle that could cause unintentional problems.