Legolas and the Balrog

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

If Aragorn was wise and learned in the tales of old, why did he not recognize that it was a Balrog? Maybe because every last one was thought to have been destroyed in the War of Wrath? How many of them participated in the War of Wrath? Zero. That happened two ages prior. There are fouler things in the depths, probably things worse than the Watcher at Westgate, that they anticipated it could have been. After all, so many ageless demonic creatures had been brought up and nurtured by the likes of Morgoth or Sauron in the past, like the Nazgul hell-hawks, the wolf Carcharoth, and even older, more nasty creatures like Shelob still roamed the lands. Well, she didn't roam. But you see the point. There were various other things it could have been, besides a Balrog. But as an obvious thing made of dark shadow and racing with flame, that could blow Mithrandir's magic and bust down Balin's chamber, had to A. Be large, and B. A fire spirit. There weren't too many other things that fit the description they saw for themselves in Moria. Also, the Balrog was demonic looking and very much mighty, and what does Balrog (more specifically Valaraukar) mean? Exactly.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

We don't actually know how many fought in the War of Wrath, since information on it is scarce. I would warrant that it would've been few, since Tolkien finally went form his opinion on mass Balrogs to only 7 or less.

Well too me 7 or less Balrogs is a mass of them.

...on another note, not only could have Legolas heard tales and songs about balrog but their must be some elven artists types who will have painted pictures and murals of these demonic maia spirits.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Well 7 is a significant change from the thousands that were originally concieved to have existed.

[burrahobbit]

How many top generals fought in World War 2? Certainly not thousands of them, but I can tell you a bit about what they were like.

That isn't even a good analogy, WW2 was more generations ago for me than the war of wrath was for Legolas. If I could tell you about the top people in WW2, being three generations removed, wouldn't you expect Legolas to recognize a Balrog, when he is only one or two generations removed, and when Elves are much better at telling stories?

[Eru]

Doesn't seem likely that he would be shocked by the trees and Ents of Fangorn yet be familiar with crebain.

he never was 'shocked' by the ents. well, maybe there age, because I remember him saying that he would feel young again if he were to meet an ent.

i've read this whole thread now, and i'm confused about the main point...

anyways, yeah, since elves live such a long time, knowledge is preserved far more readily than Men can preserve it. anyways, i have to go. promise to edit later. so i make sense...

[Legolas]

No, he's not talking about Ents then. He's talking about the forest and its general vibe.

'I feel the air is stuffy,' said the Dwarf. 'This wood is lighter than Mirkwood, but it is musty and shabby.'
'It is old, very old,' said the Elf. 'So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.'

[ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Sarumian]

An interesting discussion. Let me offer a simple solution - Legolas had better eyesight than anyone else in the Company. A Balrog is wrapped in shadows and is not easy to be recognised at once.

We can be pretty sure that Boromir and younger hobbits knew virtually nothing about Balrogs, while Frodo and Gimly potentially could have heard a little (I mean the Barlog as a kind of creature, not Durin's Bane before it was identified). Aragorn seems likely to have come across some information about Balrogs' role in the first age but could hardly expect to meet one; Olorin, as far as I concerned, had never met one in the flesh. For Legolas Balrogs were the living memory of his race. All of them were aquainted with at least one person having a first hand Balrog experience (Glorfindel), and Aragorn should have known him since he was a child. However the perception should have been quite different. Imagine, you walk through a London suburbian park and see an elk running towards you. You probably are going to be taken by surprise and feel fear. That's what Legolas feels. And now imagine meeting a dinosaur in a simillar settings. In this case you probably would struggle to come to terms with your own mind. This could be a reason why Aragorn didn't name the thing in Lorien. He probably thought: it was too difficult to believe and they would think he lied.

What is unclear for me is that dwarfs failed to recognise a Balrog in Durin's Bane. But yes, probably they forgot those events...

[Nerwen]

Really, what was this all about?

As far as I can work out, the reasoning is that since Legolas was the first to yell when the Balrog appeared, he must have been the only one to know what a Balrog was, therefore he must have seen one before, therefore he must be a First Age Elf, therefore he must be Legolas of Gondolin!

Makes the Arkenstone/Silmaril case look positively watertight!

[Nerwen]

I was going to say: what I find really funny here is the way so many of the posters talk about the scene of the Balrog's entrance as though the Company had sat around discussing the newcomer's identity at leisure, and maybe taken a poll on it.

"Gosh, I wonder what that thing can be? Maybe a really tall Orc? What do you think, Aragorn?"

"Nah, I vote for fire-troll. I'm sure they exist. Gandalf?"

"Nonsense, you fool of a Ranger. It can only be a wyvern– er, we do have those in Middle-earth, don't we?"

In fact the whole passage describes what must be a very short space of time– probably only a few seconds!

[blantyr]

This whole discussion should be reframed as it was in the book, as a Elf-Dwarf debate. Was it a Balrog, or was it Durin's Bane?

[Nelyo]

In Fangorn Legolas said:

'It [the forest] is old, very old,' said the Elf. 'So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.'

If he was born in the 3rd Age why hadn't he felt young in the presence of Galadriel and Celeborn? In Eregion? Maybe he didn't know that Gandalf was a Maia, really, few of them knew. But he had to know that Galadriel crossed Helkaraxё, or that Celeborn saw Thingol of Doriath. For me the only explanation is that he is not that young, he was born at least in the end of the First Age.

' An evil of the ancient world is seemed, such as I have never seen before' said Aragorn ' It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible.'
'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; 'of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'

Aragorn doesn't know what it was. If he has his suspicions the never voices them. He has never seen a Balrog before. But Legolas speaks of Balrog with certainty, as if he met one. If he is at least of the same age as Elrond then he could have seen a Balrog or two)

What I say next is just my version of what could have been. It's just a reconstruction, not a very accurate one, but I've tried to be consistent.

For an elf of Doriath it was impossible to meet a Balrog. But some of the doriathrim warriors were present at Nirnaeth (Beleg, Mablung and their company). If Legolas went with them (he-he speculations), he could have seen Fingon's death hence the fear of Balrogs. He could've return to Doriath with Mablung and Beleg.
Or he could have retreated with Turgon to Gondolin. I don't think Turgon left those not of Gondolin outside if he had the chance to save them. They just couldn't leave Gondolin while it stood. We know that Gondolin had 50-50 Noldor and Sindar from The Silmarillion but we know nothing about its social structure, so we will have to believe Fall of Gondolin in that. Professor never said it was invalid after all, just an early text. If we have the House of Hammer of Wrath (ex-prisoners of Morgoth), then surely those non-Gondolin worriers could enter one of the Houses, especially if they intended to spent rest of their life (way too long) in the sity. Legolas could enter the House of Tree easily =). So when the armies of Morgoth came to Gondolin Legolas could have led the survivers out of the sity (due to his keen sight he colud find the right pass) as Legolas Greenleaf of the House of Tree. He would have seen another Balrog then...
He is his father's son so they think of simular things.
He could have desided to leave Beleriand to Noldor (to Morgoth really) and move East. He would have arrived to Erin Galen at least some years after Oropher and Thranduil. As for his lack of travelling, that little adventure would be the good reason to stay at home in the future. And all the places he visited in the past are under the water now so they don't count in Middle-Eath of the 3rd Age).
At the very end after Aragorn's death Legolas sails to the Tol Eressёa, the same isle Legolas of Gondolin sailed after the Fall of Gondolin. Who are we to say he [Legolas of Gondolin] didn't tarry in Middle-Earth an age or two?)
If we have so many versions of the same text, so many "historical notes", why don't we combine them? "The chroniclers" could make mistakes, so our task is to "find out" what really happend.

Sure Arda is big and sometimes elves re-use names. But having Glorfindel, Galdor, Legolas and Elrond son of Earendil in Rivendell at the same time is just too much

[Nerwen]

Again– exactly like the "Arkenstone-Silmaril" case. "If... if... if...if..." Sure, you could probably write a great fan-fiction where Legolas was somehow really a Noldo from Gondolin masquerading as a Sinda/Silvan Elf because... well, who knows? Actual evidence that Tolkien meant this to be the case seems to be non-existant, however.

[Findegil]

Nelyo, you must not be dounted by hard answers like that of Nerwen, it is absolut normal that questions like this raise highly polarised diskussions. In such poeple tend too push their argumentation over the brink.

The name alone is an undinialbe evidence. And the Essay on Glorfindel and what Tolkien has to say in it about Galdor showes that this is not void.

Anyhow evidence does not mean hard fact. There are other possible and probable interpretations.

And a warning form a graet combiner of sources: Tolkiens world made a big development over time. The further apart in time of compsition the sources are you try to combine, the easier you will find some kind soul that will show that they are (in his interpretation) uncompatible at all becaus they discribe two completly seperated worlds. And most probably you will also soon hear about some kind of 'core cannon' that should be used only. To start then the discussion about the content of that 'core cannon' is like opening pandoras box.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nelyo

If he was born in the 3rd Age why hadn't he felt young in the presence of Galadriel and Celeborn? In Eregion? Maybe he didn't know that Gandalf was a Maia, really, few of them knew. But he had to know that Galadriel crossed Helkaraxё, or that Celeborn saw Thingol of Doriath. For me the only explanation is that he is not that young, he was born at least in the end of the First Age.

My interpretation is that Fangorn itself was such a different experience for Legolas he felt rather overwhelmed at that moment. He had simply never seen a forest that old before. Just because he didn't say he felt young in the presence of Celeborn or Galadriel does not mean he had to have been a peer of them; Fangorn just moved him to speak aloud.

Originally Posted by Nelyo

Aragorn doesn't know what it was. If he has his suspicions the never voices them. He has never seen a Balrog before. But Legolas speaks of Balrog with certainty, as if he met one. If he is at least of the same age as Elrond then he could have seen a Balrog or two)

If Legolas was born and raised among Elves, especially of an ultimate Sindarin origin, he would have been likely to have been knowledgeable of First Age history, and I think the "whip of flame" it carried alone would have immediately brought Balrogs to his mind. What other creatures in Middle-earth had used such weapons?

[Mithalwen]

I had also assumed it was Legolas' keener sight that led him to first identify the Balrog and I think that this is just a case of the name being recycled.

Tolkien did recycle names and unlike with the case of Glorfindel where the coincidences between Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were too strong to be ignored there is not the same evidence.

Legolas of Gondolin if he were avaliable to be part of the fellowship would have been of a stature to compare with Glorfindel and it is clear that Legolas of Mirkwood is not "an elf Lord such as Glorfindel". His behaviour does not fit with being a veteran of Gondolin. Also Legolas of Gondolin would surely have fought at the last alliance yet Legolas of Gondor has not travelled so far. Much more consistent with being either unborn or left behind as heir while his father and grandfather fought in Mordor.

Legolas can be old enough to regard Aragorn and Gimli as children without being a first age Elf.

[Nerwen]

Findegil– I'm actually not picking on Nelyo, or you. Or trying to stop anyone talking about anything. However, by the same token that people are allowed to put forward arguments, other people are allowed to point out the flaws and gaps in those arguments.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Even in the late Glorfindel essay, Tolkien didn't say that "Elves never re-used names," but that "repetition of so striking a name [as Glorfindel] would not be cradible. No other major character in the Elvish legends... has a name borne by another person of importance." Legolas and Galdor of Gondolin weren't really major characters in the legends, not by Glorfindel/Ecthelion standards.

Whereas by the start of the writing of The Lord of the Rings the old 'Fall of Gondolin' had receded into dim memory and most of its chieftains (Galdor, Legolas, Rog, Duilin) with it, Glorfindel (and Ecthelion) remained present; as late as the later Annals of Beleriand (ca. 1937) he is still mentioned- and understandably. Only two Elves ever destroyed a Balrog, even though both died in doing so. Moreover, Glorfindel and Ecthelion are still present after the writing of the Lord of the Rings, being named as Isfin/Aredhel's escort in the first draft of 'Maeglin.' (Ecthelion also appears at the end of the Long Tuor).

So Glorfindel survived, as a character in Tolkien's mind, whereas the old Gnome Legolas to all appearances disappeared except as a sound-series. (Note also that the old 12 Houses of Gondolin had disappeared by the Long Tuor (1951), with its new military organization based on the Seven Gates. We can just barely preserve Glorfindel's Golden Flower by making it a poetic name for the Gate of the Sun and its guard).


----------------------------

But I suppose if we want to get all speculative, and still be cognizant that Legolas of the Nine Walkers was a Sinda, grandson of an Elf of Doriath and not any sort of Gondolingoldo, we could call to mind that Elves had at least two and often three (or more) names, and any one of these could be the name in everyday usage. One could thus speculate that "Legolas" was neither his father-name nor his mother-name, but an epesse (cognomen); and further posit that it was bestowed once he showed in his youth evidence of very keen eyesight even by Eldarin standards, so that he was likened to the legendarily far-sighted Legolas of Gondolin and so nicknamed.

[urbanhiker]

This is my first post on the Barrow Downs forum, and primarily I want to acknowledge Nerwen's articulate thoughts. Well said, Nerwen, particularly in regards to the nature of argument. We shouldn't hold our theories too dear but rather seek the higher goal of Truth, or at least accuracy.

The original question, why Gandalf didn't immediately recognize the Balrog when Legolas did, is framed incorrectly. When Gandalf first encountered the Balrog, at the door of the Chamber of Mazarbul, he didn't see the Balrog. It was behind the door, and had not yet burst into flame. When the door broke apart, Gandalf still couldn't clearly perceive the Balrog. All he saw was something "dark as a cloud."

Later, in the large hall before the bridge, the Balrog leaps over the fire-lit fissure and the flames leap up to greet it, kindling its mane and revealing it for what it is. A Balrog. A shadow and a flame. Legolas wails "A Balrog is come!" and at almost the same Gandalf mutters "A Balrog. Now I understand." They both recognized it. They both recognize it at almost exactly the same time, and to my reading, they discretely recognize it each for themselves. Gandalf's quiet realization bespeaks a deeper understanding of the nature of their enemy.

That's all I've got for now. Thanks for reading.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Good maiden post, urbanhiker!

Yes, your points are all well taken.

I would add in the thought that people generally in the first instance accept what they are prepared to believe- but in this case we have a combination of seven Walkers with a relatively narrow perception of time-scale, even Gimli, and two whose perspective is staggeringly wide from a mortal standpoint.

Remember, no Balrog has been seen for nearly six and a half thousand years.* In real-world terms, that puts us in the Lower Neolithic: man has developed pottery and mud-brick construction, but not writing; history has yet to start. Even the Epic of Gilgamesh isn't that old. Add to that the fact that even the Wise were under the impression that all the Balrogs had been finished off in the War of Wrath, it was an extinct life-form, and the idea of encountering one at the end of the Third Age would be as shocking, as literally incredible, as encountering a real live Neanderthal or saber-toothed cat.

But Legolas and Gandalf don't view time in quite the same way. "Like I said to Moses that time..." Leggy might or might not have been born in the Elder Days, but he still wouldn't be especially freaked out by a millennial time-span; and Olorin, we can assume, actually took part in the Great Battle. This on top of the fact that the two of them might perhaps be more sensitive to the supernatural or 'evil' emanation of the thing (although Gandalf senses a Powerful Being well before he sees and identifies it).


Whereas Aragorn and Boromir, even if well-schooled in the ancient legends (less likely in the case of Boromir), would I think be disposed to think of Balrogs as a matter of ancient history as utterly removed from their real present world as the Silmarils, and thus not disposed to include them on their immediate mental "list of horrible creatures this flame-shadow thing might be". This especially since Middle-earth generally and Moria in particular contain any number of nameless monsters; the two of them had just hacked off the tentacles of one of them not two days before.

Gimli had a ready-made classification and name for the thing, which was of course correct. Just not the whole truth.

---------------

*Except for certain Dwarves, who didn't identify it with the Valaraukar of Angamandi.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Even in the late Glorfindel essay, Tolkien didn't say that "Elves never re-used names," but that "repetition of so striking a name [as Glorfindel] would not be cradible. No other major character in the Elvish legends... has a name borne by another person of importance." Legolas and Galdor of Gondolin weren't really major characters in the legends, not by Glorfindel/Ecthelion standards.

I'd also note that elven names are descriptive. If one pulls out the right elvish to english dictionary, they mean something. This left me scrambling a while back, naming my elven character in a Middle Earth game. This experience suggests to me at least that there have been lots more elves in the history of Middle Earth than good elven names. While JRRT might have started out thinking he'd never repeat a name, I can quite understand that he might not have stuck with it.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I'd also note that elven names are descriptive. If one pulls out the right elvish to english dictionary, they mean something. This left me scrambling a while back, naming my elven character in a Middle Earth game. This experience suggests to me at least that there have been lots more elves in the history of Middle Earth than good elven names. While JRRT might have started out thinking he'd never repeat a name, I can quite understand that he might not have stuck with it.

Especially since we know for a fact that, at least when it came to father-names, the Elves DID repeat names- Finwe named his three sons Finwe, Finwe and Finwe originally! (Later Curufinwe, Nolofinwe and Arafinwe). Curufinwe Fayanaro in turn gave his twin sons the same name, and named his fourth son (Curufin) after himself.

[Inziladun]

There is a quote from Tolkien that touches upon the question of the Fellowship's recognition of the Balrog.

[The Balrogs] were supposed to have been all destroyed in the overthrow of Thangorodrim, [Morgoth's] fortress in the north. But here it is found (there is usually a hang-over especially of evil from one age to another) that one had escaped and taken refuge under the mountains of Hithaeglin (the Misty Mountains). It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is-and doubtless Gandalf.

Letters # 144

Being an unrepentant pedant, I note that Tolkien says not that Legolas knew the Balrog, but "the Elf" did so. To me that supports what I (and others) said: that it was not Legolas as an individual that gave him any special insight, but his race. Note that Tolkien also says that Gandalf did indeed know it for what it was. Perhaps his "now I understand" remark could mean that he then fully understood what Durin's Bane was, and how it had affected the Dwarves in Moria.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Perhaps his "now I understand" remark could mean that he then fully understood what Durin's Bane was, and how it had affected the Dwarves in Moria.

That as well as understanding what dreadful will had contested the door of Mazarbul with him: it all was clear to him now.

[urbanhiker]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

That as well as understanding what dreadful will had contested the door of Mazarbul with him: it all was clear to him now.

Yes, well said! An incompletely perceived but powerful will contests the door of Mazarbul with Gandalf, and later after sparking into fire is revealed to be a Valaraukar, a Flame of Udun, and it all makes sense: a Balrog survived the War of Wrath and is now within one jump of the One Ring, and Gandalf is going to have to lay his body down to protect the Company. Fantastic storytelling.

[Morthoron]

Actually there is a rewrite that was discarded before the original mauscript was sent in to the publisher. Tolkien did have an alternative storyline:

"Oy! Oy!" wailed Legolas. "Balwog! A Balwog has come! Good gwacious!"

Gimli quivered and wet his hauberk. "Durin's Bane!" he shrieked while covering his face.

The burning behemoth stepped from the shadows and a coruscating flame licked and sputtered over its monstrous hide like a sun's corona. Then slowly it unfurled its great black bat wings, which spanned the entire cavern, and it unleashed a deafening roar.

"Oh my," Frodo said in awe, "so Balrogs do have wings!"

"Over the bridge!" cried Gandalf. "This foe is beyond you all, fly! I shall hold the bridge. Fly!"

The rest of the Fellowship needed no further encouragement, and they bravely rushed across the bridge, leaving Gandalf, small and alone, in the middle of the great span. The Balrog stepped forward, each pace crushing rubble beneath its ponderous footfalls. It stopped at the head of the bridge and glared down at its pitiful foe.

"You shall not pass!" Gandalf said firmly. He then uttered a memorable phrase about being the servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Anor, and then another basically stating that dark fire would not avail the flame of Udûn; unfortunately, these are copyrighted statements and lawyers are more tenacious than a Balrog could ever be. "You shall not pass!" he shouted again defiantly.

The Balrog at first did not answer. It took a few tentative steps onto the bridge, then cocked its head like a puppy looking intently at the wizard. "Olórin?" it said in a confused, rumbling growl.

Gandalf shifted uneasily on the bridge. "You…you shall not pass," he repeated, but hesitantly. Gazing up at the fiery Balrog, he then murmured, "Roger?"

"Ollie!"

"Rog!"

To the amazement of the Fellowship on the far side of the bridge, and the dismay of the Orcs scratching and biting themselves in irritation on the other side, the Balrog and the wizard started laughing. "It's quite all right!" Gandalf shouted back to his comrades, tears of joy streaming down his face. "I thought the presence at the top of the stairs was familiar," he continued. "This is Rog, or Roger, if you will. He is an old choir chum of mine from back during the Ainulindalë, the Music of the Ainur in the deeps of time. I had the first seat in the baritone section, and he sat right below me in the bass section."

"Good times, good times!" Roger boomed.

"They've gone funny," Samwise whispered to Frodo.

"How long has it been, Rog? Thousands of years, certainly," Gandalf said.

"Before the sun and moon!" Roger snickered, and they both started laughing again.

"Remember that time when you burned down that sacred copse of oak trees? Yavanna was furious!"

"Or the time you made Nienna cry?"

Oh, she was always crying about one thing or another!"

As they laughed and joked and reminisced, Aragorn inched his way toward Gandalf on the bridge. "Gandalf," the dismayed ranger whispered, "shouldn't we be going?"

Gandalf frowned but then sighed. "Rog, we must be going – quest and all. Do you mind?"

"Not at all, dear Ollie," Roger replied.

They gazed into each other's eyes and then smiled warmly. They moved toward each other for one final embrace, but the Balrog's immense weight was too much for the ancient bridge. It collapsed under them and the Balrog went careening off into the darkness. Gandalf had managed to grab a crumbling handhold, but he, too, was slipping. He gazed up wide-eyed at the fellowship and muttered, in what seemed to be relief, "Thank Eru, my role in this fiasco is over!" Then, as if in afterthought, he said, "Fly, you fools!" He then let go and plummeted into the depths.

"They're not going to believe this back in Rivendell," Aragorn said in disbelief.

"Well, I can't go telling this tale in Gondor," Boromir added. "It's just terrible propaganda. The soldiers will start slitting their wrists."

"Ve åre døømed," Gimli grunted as he slumped to the ground.

Frodo reflected for a moment. "What if…we rewrote the scene?" he said slowly, rolling the thought over in his head.

"Did what?" Aragorn asked.

"What if…we just rewrote the scene?" the Hobbit repeated. "You know, Gandalf fights valiantly against the evil Balrog, and they both topple from the bridge - thus saving the Fellowship!"

"You…you think it could work?" Boromir said hopefully.

"It's better than the truth," Frodo replied.

"Bloody well right," Samwise said with a wink.

[Mithalwen]

Oh Morth.. I can't rep you again yet but I chortled..