Legolas and the Balrog

[Nelyo]

In Fangorn Legolas said:

'It [the forest] is old, very old,' said the Elf. 'So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.'

If he was born in the 3rd Age why hadn't he felt young in the presence of Galadriel and Celeborn? In Eregion? Maybe he didn't know that Gandalf was a Maia, really, few of them knew. But he had to know that Galadriel crossed Helkaraxё, or that Celeborn saw Thingol of Doriath. For me the only explanation is that he is not that young, he was born at least in the end of the First Age.

' An evil of the ancient world is seemed, such as I have never seen before' said Aragorn ' It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible.'
'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; 'of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'

Aragorn doesn't know what it was. If he has his suspicions the never voices them. He has never seen a Balrog before. But Legolas speaks of Balrog with certainty, as if he met one. If he is at least of the same age as Elrond then he could have seen a Balrog or two)

What I say next is just my version of what could have been. It's just a reconstruction, not a very accurate one, but I've tried to be consistent.

For an elf of Doriath it was impossible to meet a Balrog. But some of the doriathrim warriors were present at Nirnaeth (Beleg, Mablung and their company). If Legolas went with them (he-he speculations), he could have seen Fingon's death hence the fear of Balrogs. He could've return to Doriath with Mablung and Beleg.
Or he could have retreated with Turgon to Gondolin. I don't think Turgon left those not of Gondolin outside if he had the chance to save them. They just couldn't leave Gondolin while it stood. We know that Gondolin had 50-50 Noldor and Sindar from The Silmarillion but we know nothing about its social structure, so we will have to believe Fall of Gondolin in that. Professor never said it was invalid after all, just an early text. If we have the House of Hammer of Wrath (ex-prisoners of Morgoth), then surely those non-Gondolin worriers could enter one of the Houses, especially if they intended to spent rest of their life (way too long) in the sity. Legolas could enter the House of Tree easily =). So when the armies of Morgoth came to Gondolin Legolas could have led the survivers out of the sity (due to his keen sight he colud find the right pass) as Legolas Greenleaf of the House of Tree. He would have seen another Balrog then...
He is his father's son so they think of simular things.
He could have desided to leave Beleriand to Noldor (to Morgoth really) and move East. He would have arrived to Erin Galen at least some years after Oropher and Thranduil. As for his lack of travelling, that little adventure would be the good reason to stay at home in the future. And all the places he visited in the past are under the water now so they don't count in Middle-Eath of the 3rd Age).
At the very end after Aragorn's death Legolas sails to the Tol Eressёa, the same isle Legolas of Gondolin sailed after the Fall of Gondolin. Who are we to say he [Legolas of Gondolin] didn't tarry in Middle-Earth an age or two?)
If we have so many versions of the same text, so many "historical notes", why don't we combine them? "The chroniclers" could make mistakes, so our task is to "find out" what really happend.

Sure Arda is big and sometimes elves re-use names. But having Glorfindel, Galdor, Legolas and Elrond son of Earendil in Rivendell at the same time is just too much

[Nerwen]

Again– exactly like the "Arkenstone-Silmaril" case. "If... if... if...if..." Sure, you could probably write a great fan-fiction where Legolas was somehow really a Noldo from Gondolin masquerading as a Sinda/Silvan Elf because... well, who knows? Actual evidence that Tolkien meant this to be the case seems to be non-existant, however.

[Findegil]

Nelyo, you must not be dounted by hard answers like that of Nerwen, it is absolut normal that questions like this raise highly polarised diskussions. In such poeple tend too push their argumentation over the brink.

The name alone is an undinialbe evidence. And the Essay on Glorfindel and what Tolkien has to say in it about Galdor showes that this is not void.

Anyhow evidence does not mean hard fact. There are other possible and probable interpretations.

And a warning form a graet combiner of sources: Tolkiens world made a big development over time. The further apart in time of compsition the sources are you try to combine, the easier you will find some kind soul that will show that they are (in his interpretation) uncompatible at all becaus they discribe two completly seperated worlds. And most probably you will also soon hear about some kind of 'core cannon' that should be used only. To start then the discussion about the content of that 'core cannon' is like opening pandoras box.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Mithalwen]

I had also assumed it was Legolas' keener sight that led him to first identify the Balrog and I think that this is just a case of the name being recycled.

Tolkien did recycle names and unlike with the case of Glorfindel where the coincidences between Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were too strong to be ignored there is not the same evidence.

Legolas of Gondolin if he were avaliable to be part of the fellowship would have been of a stature to compare with Glorfindel and it is clear that Legolas of Mirkwood is not "an elf Lord such as Glorfindel". His behaviour does not fit with being a veteran of Gondolin. Also Legolas of Gondolin would surely have fought at the last alliance yet Legolas of Gondor has not travelled so far. Much more consistent with being either unborn or left behind as heir while his father and grandfather fought in Mordor.

Legolas can be old enough to regard Aragorn and Gimli as children without being a first age Elf.

[Nerwen]

Findegil– I'm actually not picking on Nelyo, or you. Or trying to stop anyone talking about anything. However, by the same token that people are allowed to put forward arguments, other people are allowed to point out the flaws and gaps in those arguments.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Even in the late Glorfindel essay, Tolkien didn't say that "Elves never re-used names," but that "repetition of so striking a name [as Glorfindel] would not be cradible. No other major character in the Elvish legends... has a name borne by another person of importance." Legolas and Galdor of Gondolin weren't really major characters in the legends, not by Glorfindel/Ecthelion standards.

Whereas by the start of the writing of The Lord of the Rings the old 'Fall of Gondolin' had receded into dim memory and most of its chieftains (Galdor, Legolas, Rog, Duilin) with it, Glorfindel (and Ecthelion) remained present; as late as the later Annals of Beleriand (ca. 1937) he is still mentioned- and understandably. Only two Elves ever destroyed a Balrog, even though both died in doing so. Moreover, Glorfindel and Ecthelion are still present after the writing of the Lord of the Rings, being named as Isfin/Aredhel's escort in the first draft of 'Maeglin.' (Ecthelion also appears at the end of the Long Tuor).

So Glorfindel survived, as a character in Tolkien's mind, whereas the old Gnome Legolas to all appearances disappeared except as a sound-series. (Note also that the old 12 Houses of Gondolin had disappeared by the Long Tuor (1951), with its new military organization based on the Seven Gates. We can just barely preserve Glorfindel's Golden Flower by making it a poetic name for the Gate of the Sun and its guard).


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But I suppose if we want to get all speculative, and still be cognizant that Legolas of the Nine Walkers was a Sinda, grandson of an Elf of Doriath and not any sort of Gondolingoldo, we could call to mind that Elves had at least two and often three (or more) names, and any one of these could be the name in everyday usage. One could thus speculate that "Legolas" was neither his father-name nor his mother-name, but an epesse (cognomen); and further posit that it was bestowed once he showed in his youth evidence of very keen eyesight even by Eldarin standards, so that he was likened to the legendarily far-sighted Legolas of Gondolin and so nicknamed.

[urbanhiker]

This is my first post on the Barrow Downs forum, and primarily I want to acknowledge Nerwen's articulate thoughts. Well said, Nerwen, particularly in regards to the nature of argument. We shouldn't hold our theories too dear but rather seek the higher goal of Truth, or at least accuracy.

The original question, why Gandalf didn't immediately recognize the Balrog when Legolas did, is framed incorrectly. When Gandalf first encountered the Balrog, at the door of the Chamber of Mazarbul, he didn't see the Balrog. It was behind the door, and had not yet burst into flame. When the door broke apart, Gandalf still couldn't clearly perceive the Balrog. All he saw was something "dark as a cloud."

Later, in the large hall before the bridge, the Balrog leaps over the fire-lit fissure and the flames leap up to greet it, kindling its mane and revealing it for what it is. A Balrog. A shadow and a flame. Legolas wails "A Balrog is come!" and at almost the same Gandalf mutters "A Balrog. Now I understand." They both recognized it. They both recognize it at almost exactly the same time, and to my reading, they discretely recognize it each for themselves. Gandalf's quiet realization bespeaks a deeper understanding of the nature of their enemy.

That's all I've got for now. Thanks for reading.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Even in the late Glorfindel essay, Tolkien didn't say that "Elves never re-used names," but that "repetition of so striking a name [as Glorfindel] would not be cradible. No other major character in the Elvish legends... has a name borne by another person of importance." Legolas and Galdor of Gondolin weren't really major characters in the legends, not by Glorfindel/Ecthelion standards.

I'd also note that elven names are descriptive. If one pulls out the right elvish to english dictionary, they mean something. This left me scrambling a while back, naming my elven character in a Middle Earth game. This experience suggests to me at least that there have been lots more elves in the history of Middle Earth than good elven names. While JRRT might have started out thinking he'd never repeat a name, I can quite understand that he might not have stuck with it.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nelyo

If he was born in the 3rd Age why hadn't he felt young in the presence of Galadriel and Celeborn? In Eregion? Maybe he didn't know that Gandalf was a Maia, really, few of them knew. But he had to know that Galadriel crossed Helkaraxё, or that Celeborn saw Thingol of Doriath. For me the only explanation is that he is not that young, he was born at least in the end of the First Age.

My interpretation is that Fangorn itself was such a different experience for Legolas he felt rather overwhelmed at that moment. He had simply never seen a forest that old before. Just because he didn't say he felt young in the presence of Celeborn or Galadriel does not mean he had to have been a peer of them; Fangorn just moved him to speak aloud.

Originally Posted by Nelyo

Aragorn doesn't know what it was. If he has his suspicions the never voices them. He has never seen a Balrog before. But Legolas speaks of Balrog with certainty, as if he met one. If he is at least of the same age as Elrond then he could have seen a Balrog or two)

If Legolas was born and raised among Elves, especially of an ultimate Sindarin origin, he would have been likely to have been knowledgeable of First Age history, and I think the "whip of flame" it carried alone would have immediately brought Balrogs to his mind. What other creatures in Middle-earth had used such weapons?