New trailer for 'The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey'

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But in PJ's universe Gandalf already is established that way, and Radagast should be as well. Of course, strictly speaking, in PJ's universe we never heard anything about Ainur, but basically we know of Saruman and Gandalf being those powerful wizards, Gandalf even with this "transcendent" dimension to him, so that should be taken into account when talking about Radagast too...

To be fair, Gandalf the Grey was established as a slightly batty, scruffy chap in PJ's films, it was only when he became Gandalf the White that he became 'noble/angelic' etc. And it looks like Gandalf the Grey will again be that eccentric old duffer with mucky robes and a messy beard in The Hobbit so it's not that strange that Radagast is like the Swampy of Mirkwood. And I quite like these trampy old wizards, as davem says, they are more like the shamen of the woods than nice, shiny wizards and that's more interesting to me.

Look, I am not a native English speaker, so of course my choice is based only on my aesthetic impression And it is simply so that I get the impression very often some people are pretending to have some accent while they in fact don't and it sounds terrible. On top of that, this particular accent is not aesthetically pleasant, just like Pippin's isn't, if you ask me. Or not in the way he does it. It's annoying.

Billy Boyd's accent was his native one! I'm not sure about the other chap but Aidan Turner is Irish - he can 'do' accents very well though. And we've only heard a snippet of it so far so there's nowt to criticise. Northern accents are the most aesthetically pleasing of all, and the most correct, posh ones being a French aberration

I think, in fact, with the Hobbit, the combination of the darkness behind might actually be good. Tolkien, after all, does work with all these "deeper, darker, older things in the background" (Moria, Durin, Necromancer - as he says himself). But the counterweight to this should not be Obelix falling from a tree, but some light, British humor. And the fairytale-elements should remain just that, fairytale. Fairytale borders the "unlikely", like Beorn's animals talking, but it isn't supposed to be outright stupid. "Weird" or "silly" does not equal "stupid". And again, PJ - no eye for nuances, the oldest and biggest problem of his.

Besides, a rabbit-sled is certainly enslaving the poor animals and forcing them to do hard labor Something Radagast would never do.

British humour isn't 'light', that's just the stuff that gets exported. The majority of British humour is very harsh, even quite cruel and crude. Slapstick is essentially violence, and then you have satire and black humour, plenty of toilet humour and trading on embarrassment. Some of the comedy that's on British TV would make people in other countries have palpitations, it's so offensive. A big naked goblin being flung at dwarves is very British. I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing! But it's nothing out of the ordinary. It's a bit League of Gentlemen, actually...

This is why I can handle the idea of the rabbit sled. My first thought was the killer rabbit in The Holy Grail - another strand of British humour is absurdity. Jackson does use crude comedy like belching etc in his films but that's another strong feature of British humour. "More tea, vicar?!"

I'm not sure where the idea of a Jar Jar Binks character being in the films is coming from though. I'm tempted to think that if the Tra-la-la-lally-ing is left in then it will indeed be corny.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's not that I or most anyone would object to humor in the movies- adaptations of what is after all a very funny book in places.

The issue is the WRONG KIND of humor- as stated above, "stupid American movie humor." And that's the problem. Tolkien's humor was dry, puckish, donnish, clever- even when aimed at children it's aimed at *bright* children- PJ's humor belongs with the Farrelly Brothers and Adam Sandler.

This is not in the British humor tradition, nowhere on the Anglospectrum from refined to crude, from Austen to Python to Benny Hill.

(Note on the Pythons- the Trolls' Gandalf-aided argument over how to cook 13 dwarves and a Burrahobbit is actually fairly Pythonesque. But then the 5 British Pythons were all Oxbridge products, after all).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

To be fair, Gandalf the Grey was established as a slightly batty, scruffy chap in PJ's films, it was only when he became Gandalf the White that he became 'noble/angelic' etc.

Sure, sure. But the point is that since seeing Gandalf the White, the audience already knows that the Wizards are something more than just scruffy old men. And when you watch the movie for the second time with that knowledge in mind, you can still see the "hidden power" aspect in Gandalf, or Saruman, for that matter. Of course, it remains to be seen what they do with Radagast - maybe he's going to have that too. But just on first sight, the "air" is not very pleasant.

Billy Boyd's accent was his native one! I'm not sure about the other chap but Aidan Turner is Irish - he can 'do' accents very well though. And we've only heard a snippet of it so far so there's nowt to criticise. Northern accents are the most aesthetically pleasing of all, and the most correct, posh ones being a French aberration

I'm not presuming to judge whether accents are natural or not, they sound fake. To me. Like when all the Dwarves in all the fantasy games or who knows what have these fake Scottish accents or who knows what. As for "posh ones" - I have no idea what you mean by "posh", when you say "posh", I imagine the overdone "high-class" English (thinking the classic over the top versions of My Fair Lady professors). I prefer normal English. Something in the limits. The stuff we hear from most people in most normal movies. Average.

British humour isn't 'light', that's just the stuff that gets exported. The majority of British humour is very harsh, even quite cruel and crude. Slapstick is essentially violence, and then you have satire and black humour, plenty of toilet humour and trading on embarrassment. Some of the comedy that's on British TV would make people in other countries have palpitations, it's so offensive. A big naked goblin being flung at dwarves is very British. I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing! But it's nothing out of the ordinary. It's a bit League of Gentlemen, actually...

I think I'd be fine with that. I am not British, so I cannot 100% say I know what British humour is like, but I think I have some basic ideas. Yes indeed, satire, black humour and absurdity is what I think of. They say Czech humour is very similar to British one, and when I think of e.g. the use of black humour, satire or (perhaps in lesser manner for mainstream Czech humour) absurdity, I tend to agree, at least from the Czech part and as far as I have seen or heard (what comes to my mind from the TV now are the Pythons, Red Dwarf, Rowan Atkinson, Black Books - there is the sort of central line to it which is similar).

But I fail to see the falling of the Goblin on top of the folks as having anything in common with the spirit of the kind of humour I could even remotely connect with The Hobbit. The rabbit sled is just weird. Of course, the rabbit sled is taken out of context in the trailer, but it gives the impression that it is just like in, I don't know, Ice Age where the folks are sliding down that icy tunnel. Nothing wrong about that, but does it belong into The Hobbit? With Radagast? If there was a similar thing with Bilbo falling down the crack to Gollum's cave, sure. But he's the hobbit. Radagast is not. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Tolkien's humor was dry, puckish, donnish, clever- even when aimed at children it's aimed at *bright* children

Absolutely well said.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It's not that I or most anyone would object to humor in the movies- adaptations of what is after all a very funny book in places.

The issue is the WRONG KIND of humor- as stated above, "stupid American movie humor." And that's the problem. Tolkien's humor was dry, puckish, donnish, clever- even when aimed at children it's aimed at *bright* children- PJ's humor belongs with the Farrelly Brothers and Adam Sandler.

This is not in the British humor tradition, nowhere on the Anglospectrum from refined to crude, from Austen to Python to Benny Hill.

(Note on the Pythons- the Trolls' Gandalf-aided argument over how to cook 13 dwarves and a Burrahobbit is actually fairly Pythonesque. But then the 5 British Pythons were all Oxbridge products, after all).

You're wrong about Tolkien's sense of humour, he was fond of being silly and playing pranks, one of them involving stealing a bus, which would have any modern day yobbo marked down as a Twoccer and slapped with an Asbo! People think of him as an old stiff when he wasn't anything of the sort. I've just heard on the TV now about how he and the Inklings would get drunk and read aloud the work of a writer known to produce 'purple prose' while trying not to laugh. Sounds rather like the pub game people play now where they read 50 Shades of Grey aloud and have to get a round in if they start laughing.

There's plenty of silliness in The Hobbit aimed at all children (no need to be snooty about bright and thick children, they all get it, he wrote it for his own kids after all who were nothing special, it wasn't a pre-designed product targeted at the hothoused offspring of Islington intellectuals, just some fun).

What I've seen in the trailers could be straight out of any number of British comedy programmes. That naked goblin is grotesque and the sort of thing you might expect on The League of Gentlemen or The Young Ones. I can also see Simon Pegg using something grim like that. The rabbit sled could be from Wallace and Gromit. Burps and food chucking can be from dozens of things. And those are the only things we've seen so far, so it can't be judged more than this. We have still to see Stephen Fry or how Martin Freeman will no doubt handle the intro scene wonderfully knowing how good he was in The Office (that scene being one of my favourite comedy passages ever written - straight out of Yes, Minister). Even casting my mind back to the LotR films I can only think of one 'joke' that was out of place and that was Gimli's burp.

The burrahobbit joke would actually be more akin to the wordplay of the Two Ronnies or Reeves & Mortimer. The Pythons didn't really 'do' that kind of thing.

But it's a straw man argument to say the humour is wrong because it's 'American' - that type of humour is not 'American', it is also British, and the point is whether it's going to work in the film or not. Whether it is 'American' isn't the point.

Originally Posted by Legate

I think I'd be fine with that. I am not British, so I cannot 100% say I know what British humour is like, but I think I have some basic ideas. Yes indeed, satire, black humour and absurdity is what I think of. They say Czech humour is very similar to British one, and when I think of e.g. the use of black humour, satire or (perhaps in lesser manner for mainstream Czech humour) absurdity, I tend to agree, at least from the Czech part and as far as I have seen or heard (what comes to my mind from the TV now are the Pythons, Red Dwarf, Rowan Atkinson, Black Books - there is the sort of central line to it which is similar).

But I fail to see the falling of the Goblin on top of the folks as having anything in common with the spirit of the kind of humour I could even remotely connect with The Hobbit. The rabbit sled is just weird. Of course, the rabbit sled is taken out of context in the trailer, but it gives the impression that it is just like in, I don't know, Ice Age where the folks are sliding down that icy tunnel. Nothing wrong about that, but does it belong into The Hobbit? With Radagast? If there was a similar thing with Bilbo falling down the crack to Gollum's cave, sure. But he's the hobbit. Radagast is not. Simple as that.

Yes, the Goblin thing is probably not what you'd expect after reading The Hobbit, though it's perfectly in tune with British humour. Which is what I'm arguing - that's not specifically American humour so to use that argument against it is a straw man (and I am sick and fed up with the rest of the world assuming all our comedy is twee Richard Curtis stuff when that comprises about 0.001% of it).

And it also fits in with geek humour being grim and unexpected, and the geek audience needs to be won, like it or not (what I'm hinting at here is please do expect even more OTT things).

The rabbit sled fits perfectly though. It's both very silly and very weird. And that's weird as in otherworldly, not as in out of place. I rather like it in conjunction with Sylvester McCoy who was the nuttiest Doctor Who. And I think that's something that the younger market who will understand goblin tossing will likely not go for. So quite brave, too, to think up something like that.

Originally Posted by Legate

I'm not presuming to judge whether accents are natural or not, they sound fake. To me. Like when all the Dwarves in all the fantasy games or who knows what have these fake Scottish accents or who knows what. As for "posh ones" - I have no idea what you mean by "posh", when you say "posh", I imagine the overdone "high-class" English (thinking the classic over the top versions of My Fair Lady professors). I prefer normal English. Something in the limits. The stuff we hear from most people in most normal movies. Average.

Well average is what you hear from Fili and Kili. From one line I've no inkling of which of the dozens of northern accents they're trying to do, but it sounds fairly normal to me. As does Ian McKellen, who still retains his accent. And Sean Bean, who failed to disguise his as Boromir. Richard Armitage also retains his normal voice which is generic East Midlands - gently northern sounding, not as rich as say Sean Bean's.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Yes, the Goblin thing is probably not what you'd expect after reading The Hobbit, though it's perfectly in tune with British humour. Which is what I'm arguing - that's not specifically American humour so to use that argument against it is a straw man

Well firstly, of course if it came down to that, one could say that there isn't really anything like a "British" or "American" humour, really. At least I, being a very strong opponent of all generalisations, would argue that. This kind of jokes like falling goblin is present everywhere and it is just a certain kind of humour. However, why I think these generalisations can be used (when we aren't making them a set fact) is that the major, mainstream or most famous movies (since we are speaking about movies and TV) coming from these countries, at least lately, tend to have this particular type of humour in them more than elsewhere. Or: it is more distinct in comparison to others. That's not to say you can't have an "American" joke in a British movie or vice versa, and anyway I am not claiming to be an expert on the British humour (I can't be), but there are some prevailing things that seem to be a British "speciality", if you wish. Simply put, when you are observing from the outside, you say: "Well this is the kind of humour others really don't have so much".

But this is all a sort of meta-discussion. The basic point being, and you said that, the Goblin thing is not in tune with the Hobbit. And for me, not even the sled - from what I have seen. But truth be told, we haven't seen very much yet. Heck, it's a three minute trailer (and on top of that, very probably made to contain the scenes aiming at certain kind of audience).

(and I am sick and fed up with the rest of the world assuming all our comedy is twee Richard Curtis stuff when that comprises about 0.001% of it).

Huh, I had to even look up who Richard Curtis is. On wikipedia. (Tells something about me, I know. ) But apart from Mr. Bean, if you are thinking that when somebody says "British humour", I imagine Love Actually or such, then that's certainly wrong. I was never thinking of anything of that sort, for sure.

Well average is what you hear from Fili and Kili. From one line I've no inkling of which of the dozens of northern accents they're trying to do, but it sounds fairly normal to me. As does Ian McKellen, who still retains his accent. And Sean Bean, who failed to disguise his as Boromir. Richard Armitage also retains his normal voice which is generic East Midlands - gently northern sounding, not as rich as say Sean Bean's.

No, it's average accent of something. Since I am an outsider, let me say how I hear it (but of course many outsiders' experiences would tell you differently, based on their expertise in English): Ian McKellen has "normal English". Likewise I think Sean Bean. These Dwarven guys have an accent, however, and that's it.

My personal observation, of course. I think it may show how differently things can be perceived (Even more so if some other foreigner told you something even completely different.) This movie is of course English (American-British-whatever), though being such an international blockbuster as it definitely is aiming to be, there will be certainly many non-native English speakers in the audience, and some may have similar impression to mine. Anyway, I wasn't here to argue that my point was in any way "right", I simply said what I think, and that is that I don't like the accent the way these guys say it.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Legate:

Anyway, I wasn't here to argue that my point was in any way "right", I simply said what I think, and that is that I don't like the accent the way these guys say it.

Here in the U.S I have a good friend that feels the same way. Whether the accent is Irish, Scottish or Welsh, to him, they all sound "fake" or "pretentious," over the top scenery chewing. He hated Billy Boyd's accent despite my telling him that's just the way he talks. I think (in his case) that it's because these accents have a lilt to them, a musicality lacking in the more "generic" versions of spoken English. This gives these accents a theatrical quality that seems almost deliberate, like these actors are trying too hard to enhance the attention they get out of their part. Personally, I like it, though if it really was deliberate, I probably wouldn't.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But this is all a sort of meta-discussion. The basic point being, and you said that, the Goblin thing is not in tune with the Hobbit. And for me, not even the sled - from what I have seen. But truth be told, we haven't seen very much yet. Heck, it's a three minute trailer (and on top of that, very probably made to contain the scenes aiming at certain kind of audience).

Well indeed! I think much of the criticism can't be levelled at it yet (even if it's going to be levelled at all) because all we've seen are some trailers and we all know that trailers are basically adverts aimed at specific people.

I'm convinced that the rabbit sled is going to work. At first I was "Whaaaat?" But then I thought about how 'wacky' The Hobbit actually is and I think as far as invention goes, it may well be a good one. It's rather like the Olympic opening ceremony, which sounded like it was going to be either "so bad, it's good" or "carcrash", either way it would be worth seeing - and it turned out to be a work of insane genius.

Huh, I had to even look up who Richard Curtis is. On wikipedia. (Tells something about me, I know. ) But apart from Mr. Bean, if you are thinking that when somebody says "British humour", I imagine Love Actually or such, then that's certainly wrong. I was never thinking of anything of that sort, for sure.

Thank goodness! I can't begin to tell you how terminally embarrassed I am by some of the stuff that 'represents' British culture that gets exported.

No, it's average accent of something. Since I am an outsider, let me say how I hear it (but of course many outsiders' experiences would tell you differently, based on their expertise in English): Ian McKellen has "normal English". Likewise I think Sean Bean. These Dwarven guys have an accent, however, and that's it.

I'm beginning to think that they may be aiming for actual 'regional' accents for the different Dwarves, as James Nesbitt has retained his Ulster accent, whereas Aidan Turner doesn't seem to be using his native Irish, and it would be very easy (to non-British ears) to pass them off as sounding like they came from the same region. Though knowing both actors, the former probably can't hide his, it's so strong, but the latter has proved to be skilled at it.

Originally Posted by radagastly

Here in the U.S I have a good friend that feels the same way. Whether the accent is Irish, Scottish or Welsh, to him, they all sound "fake" or "pretentious," over the top scenery chewing. He hated Billy Boyd's accent despite my telling him that's just the way he talks. I think (in his case) that it's because these accents have a lilt to them, a musicality lacking in the more "generic" versions of spoken English. This gives these accents a theatrical quality that seems almost deliberate, like these actors are trying too hard to enhance the attention they get out of their part. Personally, I like it, though if it really was deliberate, I probably wouldn't.

I have been known to lay on my accent with a trowel if it gains me an advantage. And a Lancashire accent has plenty of rhoticity and 'singing'. So I think I know what this 'theatrical element' is

[Kath]

I have to say that I love the fact that most of the actors are being allowed to keep their usual accents for their roles. I had feared that, having had Gimli be so overtly Scottish in LotR, all the Dwarves would be required to have Scottish accents in The Hobbit. To hear a mix of voices from the length of the country is lovely! That said, if you are going to cast James Nesbitt you are just going to have to accept the Irish accent.

With Fili and Kili - is one of the actors playing them naturally Northern? Because in that case it makes sense for Aiden Turner to use a northern accent than to get the other chap to try an Irish one. Most people trying to do Irish just sound appalling.

[Mithalwen]

They showed the trailer at the Hobbit thing Lalaith and I went to on Friday night. As you might expect it looked better on the big screen but it still disturbs me what Radagast is doing to than hedgepig....

As for accents ..as long as those playing brothers have the same one ... it bugged me that they went to the trouble to get actors who looked plausible to play Sean Bean's father and brother and then let them have completely different accents, they might as well have let them speak their native Strine.. Unless it was meant to be a joke like Daphne's brothers in Frasier.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Kath

I have to say that I love the fact that most of the actors are being allowed to keep their usual accents for their roles. I had feared that, having had Gimli be so overtly Scottish in LotR, all the Dwarves would be required to have Scottish accents in The Hobbit. To hear a mix of voices from the length of the country is lovely! That said, if you are going to cast James Nesbitt you are just going to have to accept the Irish accent.

With Fili and Kili - is one of the actors playing them naturally Northern? Because in that case it makes sense for Aiden Turner to use a northern accent than to get the other chap to try an Irish one. Most people trying to do Irish just sound appalling.

I always think Gimli's Scots accent is terrible, my own attempt at doing Mrs Goggins from Postman Pat is better He sounds Welsh.

Maybe they have simply gone for an accent that both actors could 'do'? Because yes, it annoyed me when family members in LotR had different accents. It annoyed me enough that all four of the main Hobbits sounded different - especially as The Shire just isn't big enough to allow for that.