Did Denethor see Frodo captured in the Palantir?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Now, The Tale of Years puts Frodo's capture in Cirith Ungol and Faramir's wounding on the same day, March 13th. However, Shagrat did not reach Barad-dûr carrying Frodo's items until the 17th. So I think Sauron certainly did not know anything about Frodo that could have had a connection with Denethor's madness.

My opinion is that Denethor cast his gaze upon Cirith Ungol (knowing from Faramir that Frodo had gone that way) and saw Frodo lying in the Tower. With the knowledge that Frodo had had the Ring, added to Faramir's condition, no wonder the guy went insane.

What about the conversation between Gorbag and Shagrat right at the end of The choices of Master Samwise?

"And we'vestruck a bit of luck at last :got something that Lugburz wants.....no I don't know' said Gorbag's voice.'The messages go through quicker than anythong could fly as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to..... about an hour ago .. A message came 'Nazgul uneasy. Spies feared on stairs. Douuble Vigilance' ..but my patrol wasn't ordered out for another day due to the Great Signal going up ,,, and then they couldn't get Lugburz to pay attention for a good while I'm told"

Shagrat didn't have to reach Barad Dur. Details were to be sent in advance by this undisclosed message system.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

What about the conversation between Gorbag and Shagrat right at the end of The choices of Master Samwise?

"And we'vestruck a bit of luck at last :got something that Lugburz wants.....no I don't know' said Gorbag's voice.'The messages go through quicker than anythong could fly as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to..... about an hour ago .. A message came 'Nazgul uneasy. Spies feared on stairs. Douuble Vigilance' ..but my patrol wasn't ordered out for another day due to the Great Signal going up ,,, and then they couldn't get Lugburz to pay attention for a good while I'm told"

Shagrat didn't have to reach Barad Dur. Details were to be sent in advance by this undisclosed message system.

An interesting consideration.

To make sure I understand, are you suggesting that Sauron did send Denethor a message, perhaps with a vision of the captured "spy"? But for what purpose: merely to dishearten him, thinking indeed that Frodo was just on an important scouting mission for Gondor? Why would Sauron think that Denethor even needed such a spy anyway, since he knew Denethor to be in possession of a palantír himself?

[Mithalwen]

No I am merely saying that the date of Shagrat's reaching Barad Dur with the artefacts doesn't seem to be crucial. If Sauron knew the details of Frodo's clothing and the staff of Lebethron that Faramir gave him and which was left by him then that would have been enough to convince Denethor maybe.

[Meneltarmacil]

Denethor was probably checking on Cirith Ungol without any prompting from Sauron, as he would have been interested in the status of the Ring himself.