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Old 07-12-2012, 09:06 AM   #1
Inziladun
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Thanks for that link, davem. I think the interview explains a great deal about the reasoning the Estate might have in being so mulishly opposed to third-party uses of Tolkien's work. Yes, there are probably instances in which permission to use the character names and likenesses could be harmlessly granted, but I can sympathize with the desire to simply throw out the wheat along with the chaff, especially when it seems likely the latter is much more ubiquitous.

CT also expresses very clearly, much better than I ever have, the problem with the PJ movies.

Quote:
"Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed by the absurdity of our time," Christopher Tolkien observes sadly. "The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has gone too far for me. Such commercialisation has reduced the esthetic and philosophical impact of this creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: turning my head away."
That's it in a nutshell. The books have always struck a deep chord within me, but the movies have been a hollow imitation, with the main focus being money. They do nothing for me.
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Old 07-12-2012, 04:50 PM   #2
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The works would have fallen out of copyright at some point anyway, so once a successful adaptation was made, this was inevitable. Such is the nature of making money, like it or loathe it.

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This policy, however, has not protected the family from the reality that the work now belongs to a gigantic audience, culturally far removed from the writer who conceived it.
Here's a key quote. I'm sure you could say that this is evidence that 'the author is dead' and that Barthes etc were correct about the post-modern world. On a happy note, it means that alongside Jackson's 'vision' there are many thousands of 'visions', and indeed even here many have taken up their pens and brushes and indulged in some subcreation.

On a different note - what does the journalist mean by a "gigantic audience, culturally far removed from the writer who conceived it"? Obviously in a literal sense, almost everyone is 'culturally far removed' from Tolkien, an academic who has long since passed away, he's effectively from another world, and even while alive he lived in a rareified world. Does the writer mean that the masses 'culturally far removed' cannot understand just what Tolkien meant? Or does this have a more post-modern meaning, that now his works are out there, adapted, sub-created, thoroughly well used, that the readers/audience have more 'ownership' than those who currently hold the copyright?

I have to say, good for the Estate that they finally got a cut of the profits, though they would not have them had Tolkien not sold over those rights. I wonder what they would rather have?
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:52 PM   #3
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First off, thanks to davem for finding this article. I find myself solidly in the CT/Inziladun camp regarding sympathies but that hardly sets me apart on this site...

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Originally Posted by Lalwendë View Post
On a different note - what does the journalist mean by a "gigantic audience, culturally far removed from the writer who conceived it"? Obviously in a literal sense, almost everyone is 'culturally far removed' from Tolkien, an academic who has long since passed away, he's effectively from another world, and even while alive he lived in a rareified world. Does the writer mean that the masses 'culturally far removed' cannot understand just what Tolkien meant? Or does this have a more post-modern meaning, that now his works are out there, adapted, sub-created, thoroughly well used, that the readers/audience have more 'ownership' than those who currently hold the copyright?
I took it, as you suggest, in the sense of "dead academic of medieval things" vs. "living, less-educated children of the 30-second soundbite and Hollywood glitz", and in that respect I didn't read it as a post-modern idea at all. Within the context of the article, it seemed less to me to suggest that people today can't get the message; rather that they probably won't--not because it is inaccessible but because they are habituated to receiving things in the Hollywood mode--and Jackson has now given them the Hollywood mode.

Mind you, I already thought that beforehand, so I might be revealing *my* assumptions rather than uncovering those of the original French author...
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Old 07-13-2012, 04:26 AM   #4
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"Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed by the absurdity of our time," Christopher Tolkien observes sadly. "The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has gone too far for me. Such commercialisation has reduced the esthetic and philosophical impact of this creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: turning my head away."

Chris must find it physically exhausting, keeping his head turned away while cashing all those enormous cheques.



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Old 07-13-2012, 07:57 AM   #5
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Chris must find it physically exhausting, keeping his head turned away while cashing all those enormous cheques.



Did you miss this particular line?

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This commercial galaxy is now worth several billion dollars, of which most does not go to Tolkien's heirs, and this complicates the management of his heritage for his family, which is polarized not over the images or objects, but over the respect for Tolkien's words.
That's been one of the points of contention between the Estate and Saul Zaentz and Co.
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:00 AM   #6
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Chris must find it physically exhausting, keeping his head turned away while cashing all those enormous cheques.



Snide little post there

More like writing all those cheques if he were to do it personally. No idea if you can read a set of accounts but this was the first lot that popped up on a search 2007 - bout half way since the films. http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/...070405_e_c.pdf

If you do look at them you will see that the Trustees don't even take expenses which having been a finance officer for two charities I can tell you can tot up.
So these are the charities that benefitted from the cashing of "all those enormous cheques". The second figure is the previous year's donation. The Trust likes to give longterm support rather than large one off payments.

Interesting to note that the legal fees anticipated to get their dues from the films is about a years worth of donations. Shows what you can do with good PR if you can make the Tolkiens look like the bad guys in that sort of situation. Also makes you wonder what the parasites who try to freeload and cash in on Tolkien's name and work do with their profits.

The Ace Centre Advisory Trust 6,000
Action Aid 20,000
Action Contre la Faim 20,000 115,000
Action for Blind People 2,000 2,000
Aid to the Church in Need (UK) 3,000 4,000
Alzheimer's Society 2,000 2,000
Amnesty International UK 16,000 15,000
Association of International Cancer Research 2,000 -
Anglo-Peruvian Child Care Mission 2,000 -
Association pour la Promotion des Extraits Foliaires en Nutrition 6,000 5,000
Asylum Aid 2,000 -
Asylum Welcome 7,000 5,000
The Bat Conservation Trust 1,500 -
Bhopal Medical Appeal 6,000 -
The Big Issue Foundation 7,000 4,000
Birdlife International 10,000 10,000
Birmingham Diocesan Trust 3,000 3,000
Blaen Wern Farm Trust 7,500 6,500
The Bodleian Library - Archiving 35,000 -
The Bodleian Library - Digitisation costs 43,857 -
The Botley Alzheimer's Home 20,000 8,000
Breakthrough Breast Cancer 20,000 9,000
Brecon Mountain Rescue Team 5,000 -
British Friends of NSWAS 5,000 5,000
British Red Cross 3,000 -
British Refugee Council 5,000 2,000
British Retinitis Pigmentosa Society 2,000 2,000
CAFOD 8,000 5,000
Campaign to Protect Rural England 6,000 5,000
Cathedral of St Andrew and St Michael 5,000 -
Childaid to Russia and the Republics 3,000 4,000
Christian Peace Education Fund 3,000 4,000
Climate Outreach Information Network 9,000 10,000
Complementary Health Trust 3,000 1,000
Create (Arts) Limited 6,000 5,000
Cued Speech Association UK 2,000 2,000
Cutteslowe and District Community Association 3,000 1,000
Dames of Ypres/Benedictine Sisters - Kylesmore Abbey 5,000 5,000
DEC Niger Crisis Appeal - 100,000
DEC Asia Quake Appeal - 200,000
Dresden Trust 3,000 1,000
EducAid Sierra Leone 3,000 2,000
Emmaus Oxford 9,000 -
Enfants du Monde - Droits de I'Homme 15,000 15,000
Farm Crisis Network 2,000 -
Find Your Feet Limited 25,000 113,000
The Foundation for Children with Leukaemia 2,000 2,000
The Friends of the Connection at St Martin-in-the-Fields 10,000 10,000
Gloucester Community Church 3,000 2,000
The Grail Centre Trust 50,000 -
Guideposts Trust Limited 9,000 -
The Guild of Handicraft Trust 3,000 2,000
The GYL Project 2,500 1,500
Handicap International 15,000 -
Helen and Douglas House 3,000 -
Help the Aged 2,000 -
The Hope Foundation for Cancer Research 2,000 1,000
The Horse's Voice 3,000 1,000
The Howard League for Penal Reform 9,000 5,000
Inter Faith Network 3,000 1,000
Intercontinental Church Society 3,000 1,000
International Women's Health Coalition 10,000 -
Independence at Home (formerly Invalids at Home) 2,000 2,000
Koestler Trust 5,000 -
Lady Balogh's Psychotherapy Trust 3,000 1,000
Landmine Action 5,000 -
Let the Children Live 2,000 -
The Lincoln Clinic and Centre for Psychotherapy 3,000 1,000
Macmillan Cancer Relief 2,000 1,000
Medical Foundation for the Care of the Victims of Torture 10,000 10,000
Medecins du Monde 10,000 13,000
Medecins Sans Frontieres ( France) 25,000 15,000
Mildmay Mission Hospital 6,000 4,000
MIND (The National Association for Mental Health) 2,000 2,000
Music in Lyddington 2,000 1,000
National Children's Home 2,000 2,000
National Council on Ageing 3,000 2,000
National Deaf Children's Society - Birmingham and District Region 2,000 -
New College Oxford 5,000 -
The Oratory School 10,000 5,000
Orchestra of St. Johns Limited 6,000 4,000
Oxfam International 20,000 -
Oxford Bach Choir 6,000 3,000
Oxford Homeless Medical Fund 9,000 10,000
Oxford Parent Infant Project (OXPIP) 6,000 5,000
The Oxford Philomusica Trust 6,000 5,000
The Oxford Playhouse Trust 9,000 5,000
Oxfordshire Touring Theatre Company Ltd 1,000 -
Oxfordshire Victoria County History 6,000 -
Performing Rights Society 3,000 -
The Poetry Trust (formerly The Aldeburgh Poetry Trust) 2,000 2,000
The Porch 6,000 5,000
Practical Action (Intermediate Technology Development Group Ltd) 20,000 15,000
Prison Advice and Care Trust 2,000 -
Prisoners' Education Trust 3,000 2,000
Rainbow Centre for Children 2,000 -
Rebuilding Sri Lanka 40,000 -
Rochdale Special Needs Cycling Club 1,000 -
The Royal Commonwealth Society for the Blind - 2,000
The Royal National Lifeboat Institution 3,000 -
The Royal National Institute for the Blind 3,000 9,500
The Samaritans 5,000 2,000
The Save the Children Fund 3,000 2,000
Shelter, National Campaign for Homeless People Limited 11,000 6,000
Simon Wiesenthal Centre 2,000 2,000
The Smile Train 5,000 -
Sobell House Hospice Charity 3,000 -
St Aloysius Appeal 20,000 8,000
St Hilda's College Oxford 5,000 -
St Peter's Church, Eynsham - 20,000
The Story Museum 2,000 1,000
Survive - Miva 3,000 2,000
Sustrans 3,000 -
Swansea Russian Ballet 7,500 5,500
The Tablet Trust 6,000 5,000
Talking Newspaper Association of the UK (TNAUK) 3,000 2,000
The Thomley Hall Centre Limited 6,000 5,000
Trefnu Cymunedol Cymru 10,000 5,000
Trinity College Oxford 5,000 -
Trust for Research and Education on the Arms Trade 6,000 4,000
Ty Hafan Children's Hospice 12,500 10,000
The UK Working Group on Landmines - 6,000
United Christian Broadcasters Ltd 2,000 1,000
The United Kingdom Committee for UNICEF 25,000 10,000
University of Oxford Botanic Garden and Harcourt Arboretum 7,000 -
University of Oxford Refugee Study Centre 3,000 1,000
University of Manitoba (Alan Klass Memorial Fund) 20,000 20,000
WaterAid 20,000 15,000
West London Churches Homeless Concern 6,000 4,000
The Who Cares? Trust 2,500 -
Womankind Worldwide 10,000 10,000
The Woodland Trust 15,000 10,500
World Cancer Research Fund 6,000 2,000
WWF - Canada 5,000 5,000
WWF - UK 10,000 10,000
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Old 07-13-2012, 11:47 AM   #7
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Whoa, pard. Best to load up with something other than blanks before you start shooting the messenger.

No idea about how well you grasp the obvious, but them thar dastardly Hollywood moguls acquired the movie rights legally, for what at the time would've been considered a princely sum. If the first movie had bombed, that would've meant no billion-dollar Tolkien media empire.

But here's Chris Tolkien, all like... Hollywood is a satanic scabrous brothel, a loathsome sump of vile whoremongers peddling lowbrow filth to the hoi-polloi. ...And I shall have my percentage!

Which is hypocrisy, to use the technical term. (You can google it.)


Nice list of charities, as smokescreens go anyway... "Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well camouflaged."

Not that ol' Chris is a villain, that would be too significant. More of a Frank Sinatra Junior, or maybe something a bit more abject.


"Hypocritical money-grubbing elitist reptile" works.


Quote:
parasites who try to freeload and cash in on Tolkien's name and work

Would that be like someone who vacuums up every last motley scrap of paper JRR ever touched, hastily glues it together and sells the resulting garbled mess as a lost masterpiece?
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:50 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by dreeness View Post
But here's Chris Tolkien, all like... Hollywood is a satanic scabrous brothel, a loathsome sump of vile whoremongers peddling lowbrow filth to the hoi-polloi. ...And I shall have my percentage!

Which is hypocrisy, to use the technical term. (You can google it.)
No need for Google.

Quote:
hy·poc·ri·sy   [hi-pok-ruh-see]
noun, plural hy·poc·ri·sies.
1.
a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
2.
a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude.
3.
an act or instance of hypocrisy.
How is CT guilty of hypocrisy? He had nothing to do with the sale of the movie rights, and doesn't approve of the way PJ's movies were done. There's no pretense there. The movies were done despite his wishes, and he feels the Estate should at least reap some of the benefit, since they couldn't be stopped. Hypocrisy would be present if, say, CT had been actively courting companies for a film treatment, then gave interviews about how evil was the idea of LOTR movies.

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Would that be like someone who vacuums up every last motley scrap of paper JRR ever touched, hastily glues it together and sells the resulting garbled mess as a lost masterpiece?
I don't think Christopher has ever claimed any of his father's "reassembled" works to be a "masterpiece". He's been quite frank about the limitations of such works as Unfinished Tales and The Silmarillion. Would you prefer that they had never seen the light of day? And if you don't like the job CT did, who would you have preferred as an editor?
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Old 07-13-2012, 01:26 PM   #9
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Whoa, pard. Best to load up with something other than blanks before you start shooting the messenger.
No-one is shooting anyone. Calling something a blank does not make it one.

Quote:
No idea about how well you grasp the obvious, but them thar dastardly Hollywood moguls acquired the movie rights legally, for what at the time would've been considered a princely sum. If the first movie had bombed, that would've meant no billion-dollar Tolkien media empire.
No-one has denied this or does deny it. But part of this legal agreement was that Tolkien, and later his estate, was entitled to some of the profits. It looks like you are one who does not grasp the obvious.

Quote:
But here's Chris Tolkien, all like... Hollywood is a satanic scabrous brothel, a loathsome sump of vile whoremongers peddling lowbrow filth to the hoi-polloi. ...And I shall have my percentage!
You support the legal right of the film-makers but deny the legal right of Christopher Tolkien? If you want to keep this on the level of legality alone, the law is the law. Is it your contention that if Christopher Tolkien does not like the films he should either give up his legal rights or be a hypocrite?

Quote:
Which is hypocrisy, to use the technical term. (You can google it.)
Claiming that legal rights only applies to some people and not to others is indeed hypocrisy.

Quote:
Not that ol' Chris is a villain, that would be too significant. More of a Frank Sinatra Junior, or maybe something a bit more abject.


"Hypocritical money-grubbing elitist reptile" works.
Name-calling doesn’t work at all. Do you think it OK to employ name-calling against Christopher Tolkien and not against the film-makers? Call me names too if you wish. It won’t matter. Most people will see that it is only empty name-calling by someone who has no other argument.

Quote:
Would that be like someone who vacuums up every last motley scrap of paper JRR ever touched, hastily glues it together and sells the resulting garbled mess as a lost masterpiece?
No it wouldn’t.

Christopher Tolkien has the same legal right you go on about to write books about his father’s works as the film makers have to make their films. Christopher Tolkien’s books have sold unexpectedly well. I have not seen most of them pushed as a “lost masterpiece”. I have seen the films pushed as masterpieces.

Christopher Tolkien has a legal claim to a share of the profits of the films (if any). The claim of the film makers is that they have as yet made no money from the films. The courts disagreed.

If you believe that the courts were wrong, then explain how they were wrong. If your claim is on the legal level, then keep it on that level. Legally it would not matter if Christopher Tolkien were an axe-murderer and pederast and abominable writer. As executor of the Tolkien estate he has the right and duty to protect the estate. Similarly the film investors have the right and duty to protect their investment.

Your argument seems to me to be that because you think that Christopher Tolkien has done a poor job of managing his father’s legacy the courts should have accepted that the films have as yet made no profit. But one has nothing to do with the other. And sales of the books put out by Christopher Tolkien indicate, taken by themselves, that he is doing a good job.

The courts decided that the film investors were lying. That is not a blank. Under the legal agreement which J. R. R. Tolkien signed Christopher Tolkien is entitled to money according to the courts.

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Old 07-13-2012, 02:22 PM   #10
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Whoa, pard. Best to load up with something other than blanks before you start shooting the messenger.
You have offered nothing but bitter bits of personal opinion and misinformed invective, whereas Mith offered concrete information in her rebuttal; therefore, it is you who have brought a pop-gun to the intellectual duel.

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Would that be like someone who vacuums up every last motley scrap of paper JRR ever touched, hastily glues it together and sells the resulting garbled mess as a lost masterpiece?
Christopher Tolkien's research has proved invaluable to me in numerous projects. The scope of the documentation C. Tolkien has done is unprecedented for the literary works of a single author. The published material in the History of Middle-earth series alone is an enriching resource that I treasure and find indispensible.

I don't know why you have such an axe to grind, but it seems to me you have seriously misjudged the intent of Christopher Tolkien as executor of his father's unpublished material, and you are utterly misguided regarding the scholarly value and reading enjoyment of Christopher Tolkien's publications. He has shown the utmost integrity and a love for his father's work that I find exemplary.

Your posts, on the other hand, leave much to be desired.
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Old 07-13-2012, 03:45 PM   #11
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Any facts in there? Sources for quotations?

On what basis do you feel you have the right to address Christopher Tolkien as "Ol'Chris"? say he is insignificant and abject?

Cheers Morth, jallanite and Inzil.. no need for me to reiterate your splendid comments.
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Old 07-12-2012, 05:46 PM   #12
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Thanks for that link, davem. I think the interview explains a great deal about the reasoning the Estate might have in being so mulishly opposed to third-party uses of Tolkien's work. Yes, there are probably instances in which permission to use the character names and likenesses could be harmlessly granted, .
The estate doesn't own the names though - they are all TMs of the Saul Zaentz company, As for things like the pub names... there are 2 pub restaurants locally with Hobbit in the title. One has had no trouble the one that has had trouble was due to them selling merchandise with the names on and was resolved by paying a very modest licencing fee.

I have had a quick look at the original and it is quite interesting to read the comments of the French readers.
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