Hobbit2 - Chapter 02 - Roast Mutton

[Galadriel55]

First of all, even if Thorin had considerable wealth for exile standarts, it was still meager in comparison to the former wealth of the Dwarves:

"Call them [halls] so, if you will," said Thorin. "They are only poor lodgings in exile." (Appendix A, III, Durin's Folk)

Originally Posted by jallanite

No reason is given as to why Thrór, Thráin, and Thorin did not join their folk with the folk of their kinsfolk in the Grey Mountains.

Firstly, because the Dwarves abandoned the Grey Mountains after Dain's (the first one) death, due to the constant threat of dragons. Secondly, for sentimental reasons. No mountain can be as good as home, and no success can really replace revenge in a Dwarve's heart.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

First of all, even if Thorin had considerable wealth for exile standarts, it was still meager in comparison to the former wealth of the Dwarves:

"Call them [halls] so, if you will," said Thorin. "They are only poor lodgings in exile." (Appendix A, III, Durin's Folk)

I fully agree.

The point I was apparently failing to make was that the coalmining and scavaging days of Thorin and his folk belonged to an earlier period than the point at which The Hobbit begins.

Firstly, because the Dwarves abandoned the Grey Mountains after Dain's (the first one) death, due to the constant threat of dragons. Secondly, for sentimental reasons. No mountain can be as good as home, and no success can really replace revenge in a Dwarve's heart.

I meant to type the Iron Hills not the Grey Mountains. Good catch!

To expand on this: if the Iron Hills settlement was going strong at the time, why would most refugees from Erebor not go there rather than to Dunland in the south? I have no trouble inventing several reasons why Thrór and his descendants did not do so, but Tolkien doesn’t indicate which of my reasons were correct ones or whether reasons I have not thought of might (also?) have a bearing on the matter.

The party who followed Thrór and his descendants would doubtless have longed for a return to the Lonely Mountain and their own land regardless of where they went.

[Bêthberry]

I've been thinking how best I can make a contribution to these discussions, seeing as I have demands on my time that might limit my participation. So, I've read the first two chapters and thought long and hard about how to approach a chapter-by-chapter reading in time for the release of The Hobbit movie.

I've decided that, for my part, a way to respond is to consider what aspects of the chapter are likely to be ignored by Peter Jackson. Not that I'm taking bets or anything. But it seems a unique way to go about thinking of the text with the upcoming movie/movies in mind.

So, as for the chapter "Roast Mutton", what here might PJ excise? Now, I know that, with a book this small or short, and a two movie extravaganza in the making, it is possible that PJ will want to use all available action and material. But in the case that he and the other writers might choose to add their own materials and not require the use of Tolkien's original story, perhaps, just perhaps . . . well, let's consider past behaviour . . . .

In the LotR movie trilogy, the chapters concerning The House of Bombadil and the Barrow Downs were omitted from the movie, the justification given that, in an action story about the ring, nothing in these chapters was really essential to the plot. (Never mind of course what we learn about the Ring from Tom . . . .) How does this criterion fit the chapter "Roast Mutton"?

It is a bit of a letdown, action-wise. Neither Bilbo nor the dwarves are really up to the challenge that the trolls represent. And both/all of them must be rescued by Gandalf, handily. The trolls know nothing about the adventure to which or on which the dwarves have invited Bilbo. There's nary a mention of the ring or the Ring or the recovery of any dwarven treasures. It's just an adventure along the way that shines to Gandalf's wizardly credit.

Wait a minute!

Wasn't that how Tolkien described the Tom chapters, that he wanted the hobbits to have an adventure along the way?

But for PJ, the fact that Merry found an important weapon in the Barrow Wight's barrow, which is to figure significantly later in the novel, is not important. Neither is the information that someone exists--Tom--who is immune to the Ring's influence, although sadly not really cognisant of the significance of this fact. So if this is a significant aspect of PJ's method, if it represents an operating principle for translating the text to celluloid, what might this suggest or even prophesy for "Roast Mutton"?

What does this chapter do to progress the plot? Or any aspect of it?

It shows Bilbo's character--somewhat. It shows the dwarves' characters, somewhat; they don't appear to be particularly wary and cautious on this adventure and are each caught rather easily and quickly by the trolls. It seems to suggest that Gandalf is the true leader here, the one with his head thinking properly about how to proceed. It provides villains in the nature of trolls who are irrelevant to the ring or Ring or the dwarven quest. They seem to provide an adventure about as significant, action-wise, as Tom's little side trip. Are the trolls interesting enough--or is the lesson learned from this adventure significant enough--that PJ will include it in the movie? Or does he have time to play, with two movies to fill?

After all, while Bilbo, Gandalf, and the dwarves are looting the troll's cave of food and weapons, a significant weapon is discovered. Or two, actually. Bilbo finds Sting and Gandalf finds Glamdring. (Thorin one also, but that doesn't relate to LotR.) Merry found a very significant weapon in the Barrow Wight's barrow, but that didn't stop PJ from removing the scene in which it is found, did it?

So, my question is, will the chapter "Roast Mutton" likely be found in the Hobbit movie or will it likely be excised? Are the trolls going to be exciting villains or will they be ignored like the very ghastly and enigmatic Barrow Wight was?

What's the meat of this chapter that will nourish the movie?

[Boromir88]

Excellent ideas to ponder and discuss for the CbC threads Bb! It is impossible to really tell what Jackson will cut, add, or alter but that doesn't make such discussions in relation to re-reading The Hobbit pointless.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

So, my question is, will the chapter "Roast Mutton" likely be found in the Hobbit movie or will it likely be excised? Are the trolls going to be exciting villains or will they be ignored like the very ghastly and enigmatic Barrow Wight was?

What's the meat of this chapter that will nourish the movie?

My response towards the movies has greatly fluctuated over the years. One thing that's been pretty consistant though is, I would prefer Jackson simply excising parts instead of trying to get creative and change it. I mean, if Jackson's not going to shoot a scene properly, I would prefer he just not shoot it at all.

It's the reason why I was fine with Bombadil and the Old Forest being skipped over. Even though if Jackson's explanation for it's lack of importance to the main ring-quest doesn't make sense (for the reasons you've pointed out), I think it was wisely handled in order to get the Hobbits from the Shire to Rivendell in a timely manner as far as movies are concerned. I know debating this point isn't pertinent to your question, but I hope using it as an example is...

I am ok with the Old Forest being removed, because I just don't trust Jackson's ability to capture the magic and greatness in that part of the book. It just meant there is one less thing that could have potentially frustrated (or disappointed) me in the films, had Jackson decided to include the Old Forest. There was no way he could have captured the same spirit of that part, and thus I'm glad (whatever his reasons were) he didn't make an attempt.

I'm afraid with Roast Mutton, it won't be the same. Even though I agree with your case this chapter has the same elements as Bombadil and the Barrow-wight, I doubt Jackson will cut it out. Why? It can be easily distorted into a fight sequence. I would prefer it to just be cut out from the films, if it's just going to become a fight scene, but for the very fact Jackson can turn it into one, I doubt it will be excised.

A shame really, since I loved the part in the FOTR movie when we got a glimpse of Ian Holm telling the story about the trolls to the hobbit children. Holm was so enthusiastic and the expressions/reactions of the kids were priceless. It was a minute, almost meaningless scene, but I loved it. Unfortunately, since it was referenced in the LOTR-film, I think fans will be expecting to now see the full "story" of Bilbo's encounter with the trolls. And my pessimistic self telling me, the "full story" will be a fight scene.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I like your take on a possible line of thinking for the discussion, Bb! In this particular case, however, I am very sure we will see the trolls in the movie(s) - after all, we already did! Remember the scene (extended edition FotR, iirc) where the stone trolls are depicted in the background? And as B88 says, we also had old Bilbo telling the story of that adventure to the kids.

Question is, will PJ have his more fearsome dwarves acting as simple/stupid as they do in the book? Will he use them as comical characters or give them a darker edge? We'll find out in seven months...

[Galadriel55]

Perhaps PJ will find that the story already has enough adventure, character/s, and other information, so he will decide to take out the hobbit - after all, what does he add to the story? Nothing much, really. Just like Tom Bombadil, he does a bit of this and a bit of that, but doesn't really affect the main plot or develop character. Roast Mutton can do well enough without him.



Edit: that was aimed at PJ, not at your speculations. (And I like your idea, Bb!)

[Bêthberry]

Yes, there are some troll references in the movie trilogy--are the extended editions the canonical version, or the theatrical release?--but what's a little lack of continuity to folks who put elves at Helm's Deep?

I think Boro's point about the chapter providing an opportunity for a fight sequence is, very sadly, quite likely it's selling point for PJ. The nonsense and light-hearted comedy (like that of Tom) could well be downplayed. The costumes of the dwarves in the snippets that have been released seem to me to be very dark. I had never imagined the dwarves all got up in black leather. Brown, yes, not not all black. (And miners don't get all leathered up while mining, as underground it is hot--at least the coal mines I have seen are, although weapon-making would likely require the protection of leather.) So I think Esty's question about their portrayal is significant. If the chapter stays, but its style and tone are changed . . . .

I'm glad folks like the idea of thinking how PJ will depict each chapter. I thought it was a way to provide a new approach for a repeat reading of TH. Will try to stay tuned!