Hobbit2 - Chapter 02 - Roast Mutton

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

...It's the dwarves who may be the most jarring, and different from LOTR. Although, the only dwarf we get to know in LOTR is Gimli. And really TH-dwarves prove the essential personality trait in LOTR. LOTR tells us Dwarves are tough to tame, don't easily forget those who have aggrieved them, but also remember proven friends. The Dwarves never abandon Bilbo's friendship (even when Sauron's messenger comes looking for information from them in LOTR) and Gloin extends kindness to Frodo based on being Bilbo's relative.

It seems to me that Gimli comes as a warrior resplendant, fresh from the gloriously rebuilt and refortified Lonely Mountain, wealthy, self-confident, and bold. In contrast, what we have in The Hobbit are a rag-tag assemblage of -- excuse me, but they admitted it-- coal-diggers and iron-miners. Thorin's thirteen are not all dwarves at the peak of their culture and glory. They are slummers; survivors; stubborn dreamers; and rather unlikely adventurers.

Somehow I doubt, if the timing and destiny had been otherwise, that (for instance) Bombur would have been selected as one of Frodo's nine companions. Gimli may be the token dwarf in the Fellowship, but consider the Fellowsihp's token elf is a prince, both men are heirs of great importance, and the leader is a Maia. Some of the members of Thorin's group are more like Pippin and Merry-- along for the trip whether they strictly belong or not.

TH dwarves are a motley lot; characters; unlikely; a ragtag coal-besmirched rabble, although a few of the leaders (similar to Aragorn) have some bloodlines to their name. That they have musical instruments is a good sign-- they remember their songs; they have not forgotten their heritage; they remember their culture; but by their own admission they haven't been living it for a while.

Can you imagine Gimli showing up at Rivendell with a bag of tools and a shovel?

The scene much later in the dragon's lair where the dwarves roam the treasure, fingering and hefting and studying various items, is a huge transition. It strikes me as the beginning of the end of their old life. One could assign that to the beginning of the book too, I suppose, but to me, the difference between Gimli and (say) Fili and Kili, is the transformation wrought by being a son of the Mountain, and the treasure and creativity and art and heritage-- and responsibility, and maturity, and majesty-- that goes with it.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

In contrast, what we have in The Hobbit are a rag-tag assemblage of -- excuse me, but they admitted it-- coal-diggers and iron-miners. Thorin's thirteen are not all dwarves at the peak of their culture and glory. They are slummers; survivors; stubborn dreamers; and rather unlikely adventurers.

I don’t think the dwarves are quite that bad off. Thorin refers to bad times in the past:

After that we went away, and we have had to earn our livings as best we could up and down the lands, often enough sinking as low as blacksmith-work or even coalmining.

But those days are past. Thorin refers to the present quite differently:

‘ … And even now, when I will allow we have a good bit laid by and are not so badly off’—here Thorin stroked the gold chain round his neck ….

Thorin seems to me to be referring to himself and his companions as being what someone being less casual about it would call extremely wealthy. Later in Appendix A III in The Lord of the Rings Tolkien describes the life of the dwarves at this time:

So Thráin and Thorin with what remained of their following (among whom were Balin and Glóin) remained in Dunland, and soon afterwards they removed and wandered in Eriador, until at last they made a home in exile in the east of the Ered Luin beyond the Lune. Of iron were most of the things that they forged in those days, but they prospered after a fashion and their numbers slowly increased. But as Thrór had said, the Ring needed gold to breed gold and of that or any other precious metal they had little or none.

… There he [Thorin] laboured long and trafficked, and gained such wealth as he could; and his people were increased by many of the wandering folk of Durin who heard of his dwelling in the west and came to him. Now they had fair halls in the mountains, and store of goods, and their days did not seem so hard, though in their songs they spoke ever of the Lonely Mountain far away.

No reason is given as to why Thrór, Thráin, and Thorin did not join their folk with the folk of their kinsfolk in the Grey Mountains.

[Galadriel55]

First of all, even if Thorin had considerable wealth for exile standarts, it was still meager in comparison to the former wealth of the Dwarves:

"Call them [halls] so, if you will," said Thorin. "They are only poor lodgings in exile." (Appendix A, III, Durin's Folk)

Originally Posted by jallanite

No reason is given as to why Thrór, Thráin, and Thorin did not join their folk with the folk of their kinsfolk in the Grey Mountains.

Firstly, because the Dwarves abandoned the Grey Mountains after Dain's (the first one) death, due to the constant threat of dragons. Secondly, for sentimental reasons. No mountain can be as good as home, and no success can really replace revenge in a Dwarve's heart.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

First of all, even if Thorin had considerable wealth for exile standarts, it was still meager in comparison to the former wealth of the Dwarves:

"Call them [halls] so, if you will," said Thorin. "They are only poor lodgings in exile." (Appendix A, III, Durin's Folk)

I fully agree.

The point I was apparently failing to make was that the coalmining and scavaging days of Thorin and his folk belonged to an earlier period than the point at which The Hobbit begins.

Firstly, because the Dwarves abandoned the Grey Mountains after Dain's (the first one) death, due to the constant threat of dragons. Secondly, for sentimental reasons. No mountain can be as good as home, and no success can really replace revenge in a Dwarve's heart.

I meant to type the Iron Hills not the Grey Mountains. Good catch!

To expand on this: if the Iron Hills settlement was going strong at the time, why would most refugees from Erebor not go there rather than to Dunland in the south? I have no trouble inventing several reasons why Thrór and his descendants did not do so, but Tolkien doesn’t indicate which of my reasons were correct ones or whether reasons I have not thought of might (also?) have a bearing on the matter.

The party who followed Thrór and his descendants would doubtless have longed for a return to the Lonely Mountain and their own land regardless of where they went.

[Bêthberry]

I've been thinking how best I can make a contribution to these discussions, seeing as I have demands on my time that might limit my participation. So, I've read the first two chapters and thought long and hard about how to approach a chapter-by-chapter reading in time for the release of The Hobbit movie.

I've decided that, for my part, a way to respond is to consider what aspects of the chapter are likely to be ignored by Peter Jackson. Not that I'm taking bets or anything. But it seems a unique way to go about thinking of the text with the upcoming movie/movies in mind.

So, as for the chapter "Roast Mutton", what here might PJ excise? Now, I know that, with a book this small or short, and a two movie extravaganza in the making, it is possible that PJ will want to use all available action and material. But in the case that he and the other writers might choose to add their own materials and not require the use of Tolkien's original story, perhaps, just perhaps . . . well, let's consider past behaviour . . . .

In the LotR movie trilogy, the chapters concerning The House of Bombadil and the Barrow Downs were omitted from the movie, the justification given that, in an action story about the ring, nothing in these chapters was really essential to the plot. (Never mind of course what we learn about the Ring from Tom . . . .) How does this criterion fit the chapter "Roast Mutton"?

It is a bit of a letdown, action-wise. Neither Bilbo nor the dwarves are really up to the challenge that the trolls represent. And both/all of them must be rescued by Gandalf, handily. The trolls know nothing about the adventure to which or on which the dwarves have invited Bilbo. There's nary a mention of the ring or the Ring or the recovery of any dwarven treasures. It's just an adventure along the way that shines to Gandalf's wizardly credit.

Wait a minute!

Wasn't that how Tolkien described the Tom chapters, that he wanted the hobbits to have an adventure along the way?

But for PJ, the fact that Merry found an important weapon in the Barrow Wight's barrow, which is to figure significantly later in the novel, is not important. Neither is the information that someone exists--Tom--who is immune to the Ring's influence, although sadly not really cognisant of the significance of this fact. So if this is a significant aspect of PJ's method, if it represents an operating principle for translating the text to celluloid, what might this suggest or even prophesy for "Roast Mutton"?

What does this chapter do to progress the plot? Or any aspect of it?

It shows Bilbo's character--somewhat. It shows the dwarves' characters, somewhat; they don't appear to be particularly wary and cautious on this adventure and are each caught rather easily and quickly by the trolls. It seems to suggest that Gandalf is the true leader here, the one with his head thinking properly about how to proceed. It provides villains in the nature of trolls who are irrelevant to the ring or Ring or the dwarven quest. They seem to provide an adventure about as significant, action-wise, as Tom's little side trip. Are the trolls interesting enough--or is the lesson learned from this adventure significant enough--that PJ will include it in the movie? Or does he have time to play, with two movies to fill?

After all, while Bilbo, Gandalf, and the dwarves are looting the troll's cave of food and weapons, a significant weapon is discovered. Or two, actually. Bilbo finds Sting and Gandalf finds Glamdring. (Thorin one also, but that doesn't relate to LotR.) Merry found a very significant weapon in the Barrow Wight's barrow, but that didn't stop PJ from removing the scene in which it is found, did it?

So, my question is, will the chapter "Roast Mutton" likely be found in the Hobbit movie or will it likely be excised? Are the trolls going to be exciting villains or will they be ignored like the very ghastly and enigmatic Barrow Wight was?

What's the meat of this chapter that will nourish the movie?

[Boromir88]

Excellent ideas to ponder and discuss for the CbC threads Bb! It is impossible to really tell what Jackson will cut, add, or alter but that doesn't make such discussions in relation to re-reading The Hobbit pointless.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

So, my question is, will the chapter "Roast Mutton" likely be found in the Hobbit movie or will it likely be excised? Are the trolls going to be exciting villains or will they be ignored like the very ghastly and enigmatic Barrow Wight was?

What's the meat of this chapter that will nourish the movie?

My response towards the movies has greatly fluctuated over the years. One thing that's been pretty consistant though is, I would prefer Jackson simply excising parts instead of trying to get creative and change it. I mean, if Jackson's not going to shoot a scene properly, I would prefer he just not shoot it at all.

It's the reason why I was fine with Bombadil and the Old Forest being skipped over. Even though if Jackson's explanation for it's lack of importance to the main ring-quest doesn't make sense (for the reasons you've pointed out), I think it was wisely handled in order to get the Hobbits from the Shire to Rivendell in a timely manner as far as movies are concerned. I know debating this point isn't pertinent to your question, but I hope using it as an example is...

I am ok with the Old Forest being removed, because I just don't trust Jackson's ability to capture the magic and greatness in that part of the book. It just meant there is one less thing that could have potentially frustrated (or disappointed) me in the films, had Jackson decided to include the Old Forest. There was no way he could have captured the same spirit of that part, and thus I'm glad (whatever his reasons were) he didn't make an attempt.

I'm afraid with Roast Mutton, it won't be the same. Even though I agree with your case this chapter has the same elements as Bombadil and the Barrow-wight, I doubt Jackson will cut it out. Why? It can be easily distorted into a fight sequence. I would prefer it to just be cut out from the films, if it's just going to become a fight scene, but for the very fact Jackson can turn it into one, I doubt it will be excised.

A shame really, since I loved the part in the FOTR movie when we got a glimpse of Ian Holm telling the story about the trolls to the hobbit children. Holm was so enthusiastic and the expressions/reactions of the kids were priceless. It was a minute, almost meaningless scene, but I loved it. Unfortunately, since it was referenced in the LOTR-film, I think fans will be expecting to now see the full "story" of Bilbo's encounter with the trolls. And my pessimistic self telling me, the "full story" will be a fight scene.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I like your take on a possible line of thinking for the discussion, Bb! In this particular case, however, I am very sure we will see the trolls in the movie(s) - after all, we already did! Remember the scene (extended edition FotR, iirc) where the stone trolls are depicted in the background? And as B88 says, we also had old Bilbo telling the story of that adventure to the kids.

Question is, will PJ have his more fearsome dwarves acting as simple/stupid as they do in the book? Will he use them as comical characters or give them a darker edge? We'll find out in seven months...