The Capital of Cardolan

[BGreg]

Originally Posted by lindil

The Dunedain were very much preservers, as far as they could, and Tharbad had been established as an early 'crossroads', never thought about the math that puts it's final abandonment to bilbo's 21st year - excellent data point.

It would have had ancient buildings, close[r] contact both with Gondor, Rohan and even the more civilized Dunlendings and was probably 'The City' for all the wild lands surrounding it - even maybe for the Druedain fisherfolk on the coast , so it almost certainly was the chief city if not outright [if such things needed to be formalized] 'capital'. By Bilbo's day it would have been the ONLY Numenorean inhabited City/Town in the North that was not secret.

I don't think that Tharbad was populated by Numenoreans anymore by the time of Fell Winter. They probably all died centuries ago, and were replaced by Dunlendings. How did that happen? Their bloodline was mixed with the blood of the lesser Men, and slowly turned them into 'ordinary' Men, completely oblivious of their descent. Unlike in Gondor, which was well populated, here the Numenoreans would have very little contact with strangers or other Dunedain, and would have been forced to breed with lesser Men to survive. So after centuries of life in fear, they would have consisted primarily of Dunlending Men.
So, the last remnants of Tharbad were actually only abandoned by those Dunlendings, who then went south in pursuit of a happier life, safe from cold winters of the North.

[lindil]

Plausible theory, but I would demur based on the proximity of Tharbad to the hidden refuge of the northern Dunedain, and their propensity to guard what was left of Arnor. And THE road from the south would have been their link to Rohan if not Gondor also in the waning of the 3rd age. Denethor was able to piece clues together re: thorongil/aragorn and one may well have been a remnant in Tharbad into his youth. Perhaps, always on the look out for allies, Denethor would have traveled the extra leg past Isengard when touring what was to be his realm, and been bitterly disappointed in what he saw, if he knew Aragorn to be northern Dunedain, and he did, then exploring what was left of their realm however tenuous - especially seems I picture it as something of a Bree, but with some dunedain still left, they would have been the gatekeepers etc. But already the process of keeping the heir hid, and their organization seemingly decentralized would be there. With the evidence left one can certainly conjecture either way though I have to admit!

I do concur that there would have been some increased Dunlending integration or trade at the least, however, they were a people of the forest and bore a heavy grudge against Numenoreans [see UT on Numenorean 2nd age forest devastation - and the resulting attitude that lasted into the 3rd age] and their allies [witness Brethil in the Silm] and while they undoubtedly had towns picturing them inhabiting as lords the remnants of a former Arnorian city does not seem like their style. I guess it would be more a town they went to trade in similar to the bree/shire relationship. Sadly JRRT does not to my mind give us more clues I am aware of, perhaps there are elaborations in HoM-E 12, etc. others can chime in with.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by lindil

I do concur that there would have been some increased Dunlending integration or trade at the least, however, they were a people of the forest and bore a heavy grudge against Numenoreans [see UT on Numenorean 2nd age forest devastation - and the resulting attitude that lasted into the 3rd age] and their allies [witness Brethil in the Silm] and while they undoubtedly had towns picturing them inhabiting as lords the remnants of a former Arnorian city does not seem like their style. I guess it would be more a town they went to trade in similar to the bree/shire relationship. Sadly JRRT does not to my mind give us more clues I am aware of, perhaps there are elaborations in HoM-E 12, etc. others can chime in with.

I think it's dangerous to infer too much about the motives of the Dunlendings or the plausible Dunlending-related people of late Tharbad on their ethnicity. Just going off known information, the Dunlendings were related not just to the aforementioned 2nd Age inhabitants of Minihiriath, who certainly had a problem with the Númenóreans, but to a bunch of other people as well.

For example, the Men of Bree were said to be akin to the Dunlendings, and although they seem to have forgotten who the Rangers were, they must have had better relations with them at whatever earlier point in their past when they settled in Bree. We know that the Bree-Hobbits, at least, settled Bree before Arthedain fell and it makes sense that the Men of Bree would have first moved there peacefully, whether it was during the rule of Arthedain or under the more informal days of the earlier Rangers. In either case, there is precedent in Bree for a Dunlending-related race of Tharbad citizens.

Also related to the Dunlendings were the inhabitants of the White Mountains. These people are an excellent example of how ethnicity isn't going to be a sure indicator of friendliness. On the one hand, the Dunlendic-people of the White Mountains were the source of the Dead Men of Dunharrow, famed for breaking their oath with Isildur. On the other hand, these are the indigenous people that populated Gondor and mixed with the Dúnedain producing the loyal Gondorian provinces that come to the aid of Minas Tirith during the War of the Ring.

Even looking at the Dunlendings themselves, it is significant that most of what we know of their history is tied to the Rohirrim--the Rohirrim, not the Dúnedain. While it is true that the last Gondorian keepers of Orthanc ended up being subverted due to their closeness with the Dunlendings, there is no reason to assume that the Dunlendings were duplicitous in cultivating this friendship--it seems far more likely that the Dunlendings were quite a bit more comfortable with the Dúnedain, who had never been a populous presence in Calenardhon than they were with the Rohirrim. Although their dislike of the Rohirrim was manipulated into war and although Gondor clearly valued its alliance with the Rohirrim above any interest in the Dunlendings, it is quite possible that Dunlendings themselves recognised a distinction between the Dúnedain and the Rohirrim, especially if they still had some contact with the Northern Dúnedain.

Certainly, if we accept the conventional guesswork that the Rangers of the North had their base in the Angle, the Dunlendings would have been quite close enough to their settlements for some occasional contact, especially if Tharbad survived as a mixed Dúnedainic-Dunlending settlement, akin to Orthanc in its last, pre-Sarumanic days--but not corrupt. At the very least they might have felt about the Rangers what the Bree-Men thought, which is different from their treatment of the "Strawheads."

[lindil]

A few points of disagreement, though I think I share something of your general assessment.

Bree was settled BEFORE Arnor, pretty darn sure. Like Bombadil.

The Dunlendings were a group in direct descent from the original edian of the region, according to UT were subject to deforestation and other forms of tyrannical behaviour from the Numenoreans, and during the Black Years when Sauron was in Numenor it was probably as bad as we can imagine.

THEN the Rohirrim came and could only have made matters worse. In all of JRRT's communites we see long racial memories. The anger at the 'strawheads' was visible becuase Saruman had stoked it, but UT and I think 'rivers and beacon hills of Gondor' make plain the animosity towards Numenorean abuses.

True it is speculation, not sure there is any danger though.

Someone left the town, it was a strangely situated between many other communites, Fisherfolk on the coast [pretty sure they were Druedain, but need to check UT], the secret dwelling upstream of Tharbad of the chieftans, and Rivendell further up than that, which does make a natural passage of sorts. The Dunedain, would have been there at least as much as they were in Bree.

So I guess where we may agree is that there were locals who were of dunlendish/breesih type extraction who may or may have not been more or less native to tharbad. If they existed they are never mentioned. All other groups are.

It does make sense that as Cardolan [and later the chieftans/rangers] dwindled they would coalesce around what was left. Tharbad was left till Bilbo's youth, and the secret dwelling 150 miles or so from Rivendell and 150 from Tharbad was left., and it was the South 'border' of the Rangers patrol zone...all else is speculative...

[Snowdog]

They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the stone-rings upon the hills and in the hollows among the hills. Sheep were bleating in flocks. Green walls and white walls rose. There were fortresses on the heights. Kings of little kingdoms fought together, and the young Sun shone like fire on the red metal of their new and greedy swords. There was victory and defeat; and towers fell, fortresses were burned, and flames went up into the sky. Gold was piled on the biers of dead kings and queens; and mounds covered them, and the stone doors were shut; and the grass grew over all.

This tells of walls and fortresses on heights, and the latest release for LOTRO is all about Cardolan.
Though it is quite fanficcy, they make some interesting places in the game.

[Huinesoron]

Out of curiousity I looked up Cardolan in the actual MERP sourcebooks - they're available on the Internet Archive, you can read the Arnor book here. On page 44, it describes Cardolan thus:

Originally Posted by MERP, not Tolkien

However, most of the landscape is dominated by slowly rolling, treeless grassland, a bleakness offset only by the teeming city of Tharbad, the Queen of the North.

That strongly suggests that Tharbad is the chief city of Cardolan, though it falls short of saying it's the capital. The reason for that is revealed on page 86:

Originally Posted by MERP, not Tolkien

Although Tharbad has lost all of its glitter and most of its pride, it is still a mighty city, at least by the standards of the North. The King of Cardolan once ruled Tharbad; it provided him a power base for the control of the unruly Princes. Few of the Kings had a taste for living in Tharbad, keeping to the royal compound at Thalion (Metraith). They administered the city through the office of the Mayor.

Thus, the answer to the actual MERP question asked is: there is no capital of royal Cardolan! Much like the Saxon kingdoms of England, the King lives in a royal compound/hunting lodge, separated from the chief city where the Guilds (of course they gave it guilds) are based. The King's Council is made up of provincial princes, who would stay in their own provinces; the King's Chancellor presumably either hangs out with the king or roams around. (Notably, after the fall of the kings, the council gave the Chancellor title to the captain of the Gondorian garrison at Tharbad, so maybe he hung out there.)

It may well be that the "standard line" among players is different, but the MERP source texts are clear: Cardolan has no capital, Cardolan needs no capital.

hS

[Straethyen]

Coincidentally, I found the source books on the Internet Archive before finding this post. I was trying to figure the culture and political atmosphere in the three sister kingdoms of the fallen Arnor. In the MERP book, Lost Realm of Cardolan, on page 10 it states:

Metraith: (S. "Streetsend.") Often considered the capital, Metraith is a strategically-
located town in central Cardolan. It stands at the crossroads of the Greenway and the
Redway, by the royal hold at Thalion. (Metraith is also known as Thalion.)

The MERP resources seem to agree with Huinesoron's reply to the post. Cardolan had no capital, with Metraith/Thanlion being one of the few locations that would have served the purpose (albeit unofficially) throughout the kingdom's life.