The Capital of Cardolan

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Tharbad could be a possibility because it's the only ford in the area and controls pasage across the river, not because it's on the edge).

Tharbad was also the navigable head of the Greyflood (Gwathlo in Sindarin, earlier Gwathir "shadowy river from the fens"). The river was broad and deep enough that ships could be sailed or rowed that far inland. Beyond that were the fens. Heads of navigation on rivers are another cause for large towns to grow up - of which Tharbad was one.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Tharbad was also the navigable head of the Greyflood (Gwathlo in Sindarin, earlier Gwathir "shadowy river from the fens"). The river was broad and deep enough that ships could be sailed or rowed that far inland. Beyond that were the fens. Heads of navigation on rivers are another cause for large towns to grow up - of which Tharbad was one.

... as was Osgiliath in Gondor. The Anduin wasn't passable to ocean-going ships much past that point due to the Falls of Rauros. As for Cardolan, there is really no other city in that defined realm that could be considered a 'capital' unless you consider the seaport of old Vinyalondë / Lond Daer. Where else would a 'capital be for Cardolan?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

... as was Osgiliath in Gondor. The Anduin wasn't passable to ocean-going ships much past that point due to the Falls of Rauros. As for Cardolan, there is really no other city in that defined realm that could be considered a 'capital' unless you consider the seaport of old Vinyalondë / Lond Daer. Where else would a 'capital be for Cardolan?

I now wonder if the splinter realms of Cardolan and Rhudaur were organised enough to even have a formal capital. Were the Dúnedain in those realms numerous enough to need one, or did the majority of them stay loyal to Arthedain? Where would Rhudaur's have been?

The only major places of habitation in the North Kingdom of which the reader is told were Annúminas and Fornost, and both were within the bounds of Arthedain. If the self-styled lords of Cardolan and Rhudaur had felt the need for a center of government, why couldn't they have made do with a castle or fortress somewhere? There needn't have been a large city or town around it.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I now wonder if the splinter realms of Cardolan and Rhudaur were organised enough to even have a formal capital. Were the Dúnedain in those realms numerous enough to need one, or did the majority of them stay loyal to Arthedain? Where would Rhudaur's have been?

The only major places of habitation in the North Kingdom of which the reader is told were Annúminas and Fornost, and both were within the bounds of Arthedain. If the self-styled lords of Cardolan and Rhudaur had felt the need for a center of government, why couldn't they have made do with a castle or fortress somewhere? There needn't have been a large city or town around it.

I missed this reply the last time I reviewed this excellent thread. I know there isn't any named towns/cities, and it is obviously lost to the fringes of Tolkien's stories as undeveloped, but to me, with the fragmenting of the crown among the brothers, there surely would have been some 'royal' seat for for the Rhudaurian and Cardolanion princes who become kings of the fragments. Forever in the realm of fanfiction.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

I missed this reply the last time I reviewed this excellent thread. I know there isn't any named towns/cities, and it is obviously lost to the fringes of Tolkien's stories as undeveloped, but to me, with the fragmenting of the crown among the brothers, there surely would have been some 'royal' seat for for the Rhudaurian and Cardolanion princes who become kings of the fragments. Forever in the realm of fanfiction.

Maybe they didn't! The term is itinerant court, and what it means is that there is no capital - or rather, the capital is wherever the court happens to be this week. Apparently the Holy Roman Empire used it, because the states in it were liable to fall apart if the court didn't show up frequently to keep an eye on them. Given that Arnor already fell apart, I can see the kings of Cardolan and Rhudaur adopting the technique.

It might even explain why the last stand of Cardolan took place in an ancient graveyard, rather than, oh, a castle. Maybe there were no decent castles in Cardolan - just "royal palaces" that were little more than hunting lodges, scattered around the country so that the kings could keep moving and putting out the various fires their country fell prey to.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Apparently the Holy Roman Empire used it, because the states in it were liable to fall apart if the court didn't show up frequently to keep an eye on them.
hS

Well, that's not really the reason. It had more to do with the fact that each successive Emperor (or King of the Germans, since several couldn't be bothered to go to Rome and have the Pope crown them) was working from his own power base of family lands and vassals and naturally would keep his administration there; Habsburgs would base themselves in Innsbruck or Vienna, Luxembourgs in Prague, Wittelsbachs in Munich.

But Tolkien I think is thinking of an earlier period before the idea of a "capital" really arose in the West: the Court moved with the King, who moved around not necessarily to keep fractious subjects in line (although that happened a lot as well), as that in the early Middle Ages (a) the "government" wasn't very many people and was therefore portable, and (b) as in Farmer Giles, a royal entourage tended to hit a local economy like a swarm of locusts, and was obliged to move on when all the food and drink was gone.

But I suppose the question has to be asked why this situation would apply in Cardolan and Rhudaur, when the Dunedain and the Numenoreans before them had had capitals, and Arthedain still did.