Will a "definitive" version of The Silmarillion ever be released? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

TheLostPilgrim · 01-08-2012, 04:26 AM

This quote by JRRT is interesting: "once upon a time... I had in mind to make a body of more or less connected legend... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched."

As such, it seems he intentionally wanted to leave some things incomplete (IE, not make full length novels of every tale, even if it were possible). Which leads me to view the Silmarillion as being canon as well...I don't think any edits Christopher made damaged his father's work, and given that Tolkien entrusted his work to his son (which speaks highly of his faith in his son to be a good steward of Middle Earth as it were), I would imagine he would've been very much pleased to see at least a cohesive version of it be released were he alive. He might've had minor quibbles here or there--But then, might've changed his mind yet again and agreed with what he previously quibbled with. Christopher took on what was a very daunting task and probably seemed impossible to him--and met it well in my opinion, in a way which fulfilled his father's mythology.

Nogrod · 03-01-2012, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

This quote by JRRT is interesting: "once upon a time... I had in mind to make a body of more or less connected legend... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched."

Let me now expose myself as the total ignoramus I am in regards to Tolkien scholarship, but I can just relate to what he says there.

Think of a scholarly mind enthusiastic with medieval history, a time in many senses different but yet similar to ours. We don't have any accounts of the history written from an all-knowing "God's eye perspective", the "full account" or the "definitive version", but a concentration of stories about the Scandinavians (vikings) written up by the monks coming in there, another with the British Isles (some older accounts, some more concentration later on figures like Arthur or even later, Robin Hood), the myths of Perceval from France later incorporated into the Arthurian legends, the Niebelungenlied bringing in many of the features of some older scattered notes (and the things shared with the Edda) and after that followed by scores of accounts... while some other thoughts, ideas, narratives are mentioned just here and there, some probably nowhere.

So isn't Tolkien just going for the "real thing" here? Some legends are more connected, wealthier in detail and in variance, while some are more scetchy, more scattered, more unfathomable? Like with real history from where we have to draw from - and of which he was himself so fascinated about?

The real history has gaps and discontinuities as well as overlapping and different versions of things.

So as an author, leaving the gaps was also intentional, as a call to incite the imagination of the reader? And if so, then isn't that exactly that which made him (and us reading his stories) curious and enthusiastic, which made him (and thence us) fall in love with the thing as it can never exhaust itself? Just because there is no "definitive version".

Pomegranate · 03-01-2012, 04:44 PM

I really like that thought, Nog - there is no 'canon' in the real world either. I admit I have always been a little disappointed by the fact that there is a lot of overlapping and lack of continuity in the Middle-Earth literature, wanting to know the 'truth'. But it is true that in this world and in the best of art there is always space for interpretation, for everyone to see what they want to and what for them completes the story best. Tolkien was a master of that.

Eruhen · 03-01-2012, 05:16 PM

Well, lindil, you had to bring up TftE, didn't you? Now I have to head back in, make a new folder on my computer, and make text files of all the finished content to see how it looks collated.

Thanks. There's two to three weeks down the drain.

**lindil** · 03-01-2012, 08:43 PM

down the drain? hardly.

Galin · 03-01-2012, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

(...) So isn't Tolkien just going for the "real thing" here? Some legends are more connected, wealthier in detail and in variance, while some are more scetchy, more scattered, more unfathomable? Like with real history from where we have to draw from - and of which he was himself so fascinated about?

The real history has gaps and discontinuities as well as overlapping and different versions of things.

True, and not that you were referring to this, but I am also seeing (what I perceive) as a tendency in some to treat all of Tolkien's variations, or at least many of them, as 'internal' instead of what they actually are in many cases -- external drafts working toward the author's intended measure of consistency (and purposed inconsistency). The Drowning of Anadune, for example, is a perfect example of intended confusion and inconsistency...

... but fans and readers re-characterizing rejected drafts as 'internal variations' is arguably undermining Tolkien's art of subcreation in my opinion.

**lindil** · 03-02-2012, 08:20 AM

Galin I will respectfully disagree.

IF JRRT was involved in Sub-creation [see On Faery Stories] then his 'experiments' in various drafts can [on at least one level] be seen as a the universe trying to understand itself, this is vastly deeper and more significant than a fiction writer sitting down and using cliche formula coming up with a collection of cliche events.

This too me is why JRRT is so important and deep, he writing, living and breathing from a deep space and I put his writings [and many drafts] in the same category of relevance as Jung, Gurdjieff and a hand-full of others. Of more modern writers, J.Crowley's 'little, big' and T. Williams Otherland and War of the Flowers approach, and even the Potter series, approach the level of truth whereby their internal fabric can usefully mirror to us TRUTH on amny levels. As above - so below.

Now that being said, studying it all from the external fictional, he wrote this stuff in the 1910's-70's is ALSO a way of understanding it - just a limited and to me comparitvely shallow mine to look for jewels and ore, compared to the mythological and even spiritual levels he attained. This to me is the key as to why JRRT was author of the century, he tapped something far deeper than himself, and like a true Christian followed where he was led.

Galin · 03-02-2012, 02:06 PM

Lindil

For better clarity maybe, I'm talking about characterizing (for example) Qenta Noldorinwa as an internal variant to later versions of the same text; that is, external and superseded drafts being recharacterized by readers as collectively internal, and the Subcreated World is thus made inconsistent where Tolkien himself imagined no such inconsistency.

I think Tolkien was engaged in creating a measure of purposed inconsistency, especially between sources: the Annals versus Quenta Silmarillion for example, or the variant texts regarding Numenor -- and perhaps even a bit between the long prose versions and the brief chapters of Quenta Silmarillion, or versus the poetic versions. A perfect consistency was not only not necessary, but not intended in any case.

But I'm still not certain why this leads you to post: '... studying it all from the external fictional, he wrote this stuff in the 1910's-70's is ALSO a way of understanding it - just a limited and to me comparitvely shallow mine to look for jewels and ore,...' This seems to suggest that because of the opinion above, I must be approaching the whole of Tolkien's work in some sort of detatched scholarly manner, 'studying it all from the external fictional' of A to Z, although I'm not sure what you mean by looking for jools and ore if this is the right context.

I don't disagree with what you posted 'on at least one level'

Or do you think I must, or still do, given this post?

**lindil** · 03-02-2012, 07:35 PM

"I think Tolkien was engaged in creating a measure of purposed inconsistency, especially between sources: the Annals versus Quenta Silmarillion for example, or the variant texts regarding Numenor -- and perhaps even a bit between the long prose versions and the brief chapters of Quenta Silmarillion, or versus the poetic versions. A perfect consistency was not only not necessary, but not intended in any case."

very true, I misread a bit of your intent on the other points.

03-01-2012, 04:44 PM	#3
Pomegranate Wight Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Home (either of them) Posts: 151	I really like that thought, Nog - there is no 'canon' in the real world either. I admit I have always been a little disappointed by the fact that there is a lot of overlapping and lack of continuity in the Middle-Earth literature, wanting to know the 'truth'. But it is true that in this world and in the best of art there is always space for interpretation, for everyone to see what they want to and what for them completes the story best. Tolkien was a master of that. __________________ But I will run until my feet no longer run no more

03-01-2012, 05:16 PM	#4
Eruhen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: At the Mountains of Madness Posts: 399	Well, lindil, you had to bring up TftE, didn't you? Now I have to head back in, make a new folder on my computer, and make text files of all the finished content to see how it looks collated. Thanks. There's two to three weeks down the drain. __________________ Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud. Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî. Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.

03-01-2012, 08:43 PM	#5
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	down the drain? hardly. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-02-2012, 08:20 AM	#7
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Galin I will respectfully disagree. IF JRRT was involved in Sub-creation [see On Faery Stories] then his 'experiments' in various drafts can [on at least one level] be seen as a the universe trying to understand itself, this is vastly deeper and more significant than a fiction writer sitting down and using cliche formula coming up with a collection of cliche events. This too me is why JRRT is so important and deep, he writing, living and breathing from a deep space and I put his writings [and many drafts] in the same category of relevance as Jung, Gurdjieff and a hand-full of others. Of more modern writers, J.Crowley's 'little, big' and T. Williams Otherland and War of the Flowers approach, and even the Potter series, approach the level of truth whereby their internal fabric can usefully mirror to us TRUTH on amny levels. As above - so below. Now that being said, studying it all from the external fictional, he wrote this stuff in the 1910's-70's is ALSO a way of understanding it - just a limited and to me comparitvely shallow mine to look for jewels and ore, compared to the mythological and even spiritual levels he attained. This to me is the key as to why JRRT was author of the century, he tapped something far deeper than himself, and like a true Christian followed where he was led. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-02-2012, 02:06 PM	#8
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Lindil For better clarity maybe, I'm talking about characterizing (for example) Qenta Noldorinwa as an internal variant to later versions of the same text; that is, external and superseded drafts being recharacterized by readers as collectively internal, and the Subcreated World is thus made inconsistent where Tolkien himself imagined no such inconsistency. I think Tolkien was engaged in creating a measure of purposed inconsistency, especially between sources: the Annals versus Quenta Silmarillion for example, or the variant texts regarding Numenor -- and perhaps even a bit between the long prose versions and the brief chapters of Quenta Silmarillion, or versus the poetic versions. A perfect consistency was not only not necessary, but not intended in any case. But I'm still not certain why this leads you to post: '... studying it all from the external fictional, he wrote this stuff in the 1910's-70's is ALSO a way of understanding it - just a limited and to me comparitvely shallow mine to look for jewels and ore,...' This seems to suggest that because of the opinion above, I must be approaching the whole of Tolkien's work in some sort of detatched scholarly manner, 'studying it all from the external fictional' of A to Z, although I'm not sure what you mean by looking for jools and ore if this is the right context. I don't disagree with what you posted 'on at least one level' Or do you think I must, or still do, given this post? Last edited by Galin; 03-03-2012 at 12:15 AM.

01-08-2012, 04:26 AM	#1
TheLostPilgrim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 72	This quote by JRRT is interesting: "once upon a time... I had in mind to make a body of more or less connected legend... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched." As such, it seems he intentionally wanted to leave some things incomplete (IE, not make full length novels of every tale, even if it were possible). Which leads me to view the Silmarillion as being canon as well...I don't think any edits Christopher made damaged his father's work, and given that Tolkien entrusted his work to his son (which speaks highly of his faith in his son to be a good steward of Middle Earth as it were), I would imagine he would've been very much pleased to see at least a cohesive version of it be released were he alive. He might've had minor quibbles here or there--But then, might've changed his mind yet again and agreed with what he previously quibbled with. Christopher took on what was a very daunting task and probably seemed impossible to him--and met it well in my opinion, in a way which fulfilled his father's mythology.

03-02-2012, 07:35 PM	#9
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	"I think Tolkien was engaged in creating a measure of purposed inconsistency, especially between sources: the Annals versus Quenta Silmarillion for example, or the variant texts regarding Numenor -- and perhaps even a bit between the long prose versions and the brief chapters of Quenta Silmarillion, or versus the poetic versions. A perfect consistency was not only not necessary, but not intended in any case." very true, I misread a bit of your intent on the other points. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.