Will a "definitive" version of The Silmarillion ever be released?

[TheLostPilgrim]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Did Tolkien have a final and definitive concept of the Silmarillion? It seems to me he was working things out about his creation pretty much to the end - and I wonder if he would have sought to adjust the LOTR to fit a "finished" Silmarillion in the same way as he made the alterations to the Hobbit to fit the needs of the LOTR.

I sometimes wonder if JRRT had had the use of a word processor and could have implemented name changes throughout a script in seconds and the like, if he would have been able to finish it or delve deeper but I suspect he was too much of a Niggle to ever finish and he would have tinkered to the end no matter how long he had lived and we would have been deprived of the insight into the development provided by the drafts.

Perhaps--it's just, what is the "canon" mythology in the LOTR universe? Is the released Silmarillion "canon"?
Also, I read something about JRRT tinkering with the idea of Gandalf being a manifestation of Manwe?
I don't think he would've tinkered with the LOTR. Although, he did want to ENTIRELY re-write The Hobbit to fit the tone of the LOTR.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

Perhaps--it's just, what is the "canon" mythology in the LOTR universe? Is the released Silmarillion "canon"?

Well, there is the bit too where Tolkien named his son, Christopher, his Literary Executor. Placing Christopher in a position to do what he sees fit with his father's unpublished works, and which is how The Silmarillion, Children of Hurin, and several other books have been published since Tolkien's death.

Christopher Tolkien has always appears straight forward with what was written by his father and what is commentary/opinion from CT. He's been rather clear with in order to publish The Silmarillion, he had to make certain decisions to put it in a presentable form. I believe he also had assistance from someone else, but I can't for the life of me remember the name at the moment.

I think you'll see both arguments here. Some who can argue if it's not directly written and published by Tolkien than it's not canon. But, in my opinion, as his Literary Executor, Christopher had full confidence and authority to re-work and do what he will with The Silmarillion and other unpublished works of his father's.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Well, there is the bit too where Tolkien named his son, Christopher, his Literary Executor. Placing Christopher in a position to do what he sees fit with his father's unpublished works, and which is how The Silmarillion, Children of Hurin, and several other books have been published since Tolkien's death.

I don't see how the work could be any more "definitive" than it already is.

Who is, or would be in the future, in a better position to analyze Tolkien's writings and decide what comes nearest to the author's ultimate intentions than Christopher?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

Perhaps--it's just, what is the "canon" mythology in the LOTR universe? Is the released Silmarillion "canon"?

Well, some people argue that HOME books are more canonical than TH.

I don't think he would've tinkered with the LOTR. Although, he did want to ENTIRELY re-write The Hobbit to fit the tone of the LOTR.

No, but he wanted to change some details. One that I remember is how Gandalf couldn't read the runes on the Elven blades they found in the Trolls' cave. TH says that Gandalf didn't know them. JRRT wanted to change that so that the runes would be covered in muck/rust/etc and he wasn't able to read them until he came to Rivendell; this way Gandalf the Knowledgeable that we see in LOTR is the same Gandalf in TH. I think he also wanted to change something with Gollum.

PS: for your siggie, Boro. ^.^

[Legolas]

I don't know how much room there is right now for a conclusively more 'definitive' text because of the state of the stories left when JRR passed. Christopher Tolkien has commented on this extensively. He was pressed to complete his version quickly by the volume of requests, and of course, several writings were found after his 1977 version was published. Given much more time and all the material he had by the time the 12 HOME volumes were finished, he's said that he could've had a substantially different version.

He set out on the difficult task of trying to use his father's latest versions of the stories, but to also balance completeness and internal consistency. Few stories had all three qualities. Stories decades in the making are problematic as they change so much - in revision, later versions would change details that also affected the accuracy of/continuity from earlier stories that weren't updated yet. Doesn't help that JRR's handwritten notes often weren't legible!

Unfortunately, at his age (87) and the amount of time (20+ years) he has already spent editing and publishing all of these writings (The Silmarillion, UT, HOME), I suspect he'd rather spend these last years of his life on something other than a new Silmarillion, and mostly I can't blame him! The Children of Húrin and The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún are testaments to this. (On the other, selfish hand, part of me says - what a crowning achievement that would be.)

If a new Silmarillion was to come from his hand, I think it would've arrived shortly after The Peoples of Middle-earth (HOME XII, 1996) in the late 1990s/early 2000s.

If not from Christopher Tolkien, I think it could be difficult for a new version of The Silmarillion to be attempted, published, and received as definitive. Not impossible, but improbable - it would have to be impeccable! I am largely ignorant of the amount of scholarly study given to Tolkien's work, but if it is there, maybe it could happen. Time may make it more likely; as JRR's children pass and the Estate is in the hands of another generation, I wonder how it will hold his legacy, including if/how it will continue 'new' releases to feed longtime fans and stir up attention for new ones.

In regards to "expanding" the tales, I think that's less likely because some of the more detailed versions of the stories were also earlier and/or never completed - thinking particularly of "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin" from Unfinished Tales.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

No, but he wanted to change some details. One that I remember is how Gandalf couldn't read the runes on the Elven blades they found in the Trolls' cave. TH says that Gandalf didn't know them. JRRT wanted to change that so that the runes would be covered in muck/rust/etc and he wasn't able to read them until he came to Rivendell; this way Gandalf the Knowledgeable that we see in LOTR is the same Gandalf in TH. I think he also wanted to change something with Gollum.

Tolkien commented more than once that he was having to resist the urge to rewrite The Hobbit for continuity of tone with The Lord of The Rings, and according to The History of the Hobbit (John Rateliff, 2007) he actually started a rewrite that was scrapped by chapter three because it felt too unfamiliar. Someone previewed it (I can't remember who) told him it "just wasn't The Hobbit."

He actually did change some details. Particularly the fifth chapter (the account of Bilbo beating Gollum at the riddle game) was revised for the second edition of The Hobbit in 1951, done so to reconcile the version of events in The Lord of the Rings. In the first edition, Gollum willingly put the Ring at stake in the game, and when Bilbo won, they parted ways peacefully.

Further changes were made for a third edition published in 1966, primarily because, or at least the opportunity was taken because, of copyright problems Tolkien was having in the US with Ace books (who were printing his works without permission by a loophole - that previous US editions only had UK copyright information listed). I do not know the specific changes made for the third edition; they might be included in The History of the Hobbit, but my copy is in storage at the moment. I expect that these were more philogic concerns.

There's a note explaining both revisions (1951 and 1966) in the front of most editions published since.

* TL;DR - Probably won't be another Silmarillion. Tolkien did revise The Hobbit twice, and started a rewrite that was scrapped early on.

[TheLostPilgrim]

If only Tolkien had been immortal...Imagine what could've come from his mind...He probably would've at some point finished The Silmarillion in total; it was dear to his heart and even the 1977 version is a masterpiece and a work of art. Although, it seems his mind was always changing, even on small issues, and perhaps he would've never reached any definitive conclusion even if given 100 years...He might have always been tinkering with it, never truly "satisfied" with it, always finding some new idea or twist on a story or new angle on a character. Consider the way he jumped around with what the origin of the Orc were...He never did seem totally sure.

I tend to look at The Silmarillion as one version of incredibly ancient tales: Some of the details might have been "lost in translation" but the story is mostly the same. As such, to me it is canon. It is a distillation of the tales, which seem to have changed many times over the course of JRRT's life. It is the best we would probably ever get given what I've read here. Sort of like how the Eddas or Beowulf were probably tampered with and Christianized a bit. Still the "definitive" Beowulf.

[Legolas]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

If only Tolkien had been immortal...Imagine what could've come from his mind... [...] Although, it seems his mind was always changing, even on small issues, and perhaps he would've never reached any definitive conclusion even if given 100 years...He might have always been tinkering with it, never truly "satisfied" with it, always finding some new idea or twist on a story or new angle on a character.

You touch on something interesting there - the artist and his struggle to be wholly satisfied with the art. As above, there were many things in even The Hobbit that he wished to revise, and it took him twelve years to write The Lord of the Rings. Though stretched with many other jobs and tasks, he did, after all, have several decades to write and finish The Silmarillion. Imagine what he could've done with the luxury of being a writer by exclusive profession as some are afforded today.

Having just spent over 120 hours recording and producing a relatively simple album for my local church choir, I can identify with the concept. After you create a foundation - a draft, a demo, or a rough sketch - you could spend an endless amount of time editing and perfecting every little word, note, or line. If you want the art to be finalized in such a way that other people can enjoy your work, you eventually have to let it go.

Originally after completing The Lord of the Rings in 1949, he tried to convince George Allen & Unwin to publish The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings together. I wonder how close to completion it was in his own mind at the time. Even though they baulked, he must've had some short/midterm timeline in mind for completion and publication, don't you think? They waited 12 years for a completed sequel; I don't suspect he would've asked them to wait another 10 years for the Elvish history companion volume which he wanted available simultaneously.

And yet he lived 23 more years and didn't finish.

[blantyr]

I was once told that in order for a Middle Earth role playing game to be playable, one would have to extrapolate or add enough detail that the result could not be considered canon. I suspect the same would have to be true for any version of Silmarillion. If you told the story cleanly enough for a wide modern audience, if your objective were for it to entertain rather than to not contradict the Professor, you'd have to fill in, extrapolate or guess at enough stuff that the academic nitpickers would lump it in with the Steve Jackson movies.

What sort of author would one seek for such a project? What should the objective be? Do you want to make money selling books? Do you want to worship at the alter of The Original Author, striving for his style while minimizing conflict and contradictions?

I'm not entirely pleased with Christopher Tolkien's approach. His value added seemed more as a scholar than a story teller, and I'm looking for a good story. Still, there is no approach that would please everyone.

[Mithalwen]

Hardly suprising since Christopher Tolkien is a scholar, eminent in his own right. Itdoes give the Silmarillion and HoME an integrity that, for me makes up for any lack of readability. If the Silmarillion as it stands is harder work than LOTR to get into it reflects Tolkien's changing style rather than failings on Christopher's part. As far as I can make out he has put as little into the "composed writings" as possible. The Children of Hurin had minor corrections for syntax and that was about it. It may not have been exactly the version that JRRT would have chosen to publish but I think we can be sure it is just about 100% JRRT not CRT not some hired gun.

Of course other versions could be written..we are all free to have a go at it as long as we don't try to make money from it. Fan fic finds its own level. I am grateful beyond words that Christopher hasn't cashed in as he might with all sorts of ersatz spin offs. Would we really want him to carry on as Dick Francis' son has with his father's books? One thing for fromulaic thrillers but with ME? As for the future, Hammond and Scull (Calcifer here) seem to be the anointed scholars and Adam the family member likely to be most involved (he aided his father with the Children of Hurin and is the translator into French of the early volumes of HoME. He may me moremedia savvy and friendly than pere but I doubt it will be a free for all under his watch.

It is quite possible that the published Silmarillion is not what Christopher would have issued had the full archive been available to him at get go...as I recall a substantial amount of documents came to light later but I think he has more than corrected his "mistake" in the form of UT and HoME. Those of us who love those works being available to us are grateful that JRR's son was a natural scholar not a storyteller. It is a remarkable achievement even for one who was editing his father's work in the nursery, keeping tabs on the colours of dwarf hoods.

My main regret with Christopher being the good scholar is that he as far as I recall pretty much sticks to the texts. There must be so much anecdotal stuff he knows from being so close to his father but he hasn't included becasue he has no textual proof. My hope is that he has written a memoir for posthumous publication but given how persecuted he has been it is a very faint one.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

If only Tolkien had been immortal...

If Tolkien were immortal, he'd still be fidgeting about with some projects half done, others half started, and half halved to have more than half whole.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

If Tolkien were immortal, he'd still be fidgeting about with some projects half done, others half started, and half halved to have more than half whole.

That, and half again as much.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

If Tolkien were immortal, he'd still be fidgeting about with some projects half done, others half started, and half halved to have more than half whole.

You know, that sounds suspiciously like Feanor.

In answer to the question: plain and simple NO.

[lindil]

I will define what I see as 'definitive' which I notice has become very different from many here.

1st - any definitive Silmarillion, would be at best relatively so, as JRRT would not be the editir, nor at this point is CJRT at all likely.

The most we can hope for is a 'puffed' up version that CJRT DOES sign off on, as he must have with the 3 volume Hobbit Editied by Anderson.

I really see Anerson's Annotated Hobbit as something of the model.

What would make it definitive to me is if it contained the maximal 1st AGE material with no attempt to present any detail as definitive, but to include the best of the alt versions side by side literally with the 'official' version.

So I mean definitive presentation of materials, not any definitive 'canon'. That ship sailed in 1999 when CJRT declined to change anything of substance other than a few dates in 1999. No change in Orodreth/Gil-Galad, the 7th son of feanor being killed, etc...


But definitive 'readers' editiion is still very much needed. As Lalwende noted most obvioulsy with the Osanwe-Kenta, it is too important to the understanding of Elves and Men and the Valar for that gem to be so buried, along with so much else that imo can transform the reading of the Silm to something more nearly approaching a] what JRRT intended and hoped for in terms of size and variability b] The whole of the story is shown large/small old new condensed and expanded without much concern being given to do all the explaining HoM-E does quite well. So minimal editorial comments and maximal texts ideally with a cool timeline [annals new above core text, old at bottom] and boxes or different fonts to show the variations, or even a final on one side, and maybe a lost tales variant on the other.

I do hope something like this might happen with the Silm. Prob Anderson or one of the skulls or somesuch would have to grab CJRT's ear.

But I think it unlikely for the simple reason that CJRT has handled all the Silm stuff himself, it has been 'his baby'. The Hobbit to him was something he could live with passing on to Anderson, Silm and LotrR material? probably not. Hope to be wrong.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

Perhaps--it's just, what is the "canon" mythology in the LOTR universe? Is the released Silmarillion "canon"?
Also, I read something about JRRT tinkering with the idea of Gandalf being a manifestation of Manwe?
I don't think he would've tinkered with the LOTR. Although, he did want to ENTIRELY re-write The Hobbit to fit the tone of the LOTR.

I refer you to the notorrious canonicity thread which has daunted me (albeit I may not be the most bravest of women) since I arrived on the Downs about seven years ago.. I do have a deal with Fordim that I will post but I haven't quite got there yet..... Bon courage... you may need ropes, oxygen and emergency rations.