Bombadil: One of the Blue Wizards?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Personally, I'm at peace thinking that I'm not meant to know TB's identity. He is, and that's all I need to know.

But wild speculation is so much fun!

I think I'm now partial to this idea. It makes perfect sense.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think I'm now partial to this idea. It makes perfect sense.

Are you serious or is this yet another joke I don't get?

(I remember a similar idea being discussed and abandoned on a different thread, but there are so many TB threads by now I can't remember which)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Are you serious or is this yet another joke I don't get?

Let's just say that site has been a great source of Tolkien humor over the years.

[Sarumian]

As I remember, Tolkien mentions him in The Silmarillion. He says, that at the time when ME lied in darkness lit by stars only and children of Eru woke up he was walking here and there...

My opinion is that Bombadil is the first Stuart of ME, he was left behind by Vallar when they left to the West in order to keep eye on ME and guide first elves (and may be men). His ability to give orders to trees, to make roads in the wood can be useful to direct elves to the West. Later he retired to a small corner of ME and kept it unchanged as a kind of national park

When Gandalf says they are alike, I believe, he means the stuartship. Bombadil's powers make me think he was a Maia.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

As I remember, Tolkien mentions him in The Silmarillion. He says, that at the time when ME lied in darkness lit by stars only and children of Eru woke up he was walking here and there...

That sounds more like Tom speaking of himself to the Hobbits.

'When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'

FOTR In the House of Tom Bombadil

Bombadil is not mentioned in The Silmarillion.

Originally Posted by Sarumian

My opinion is that Bombadil is the first Stuart of ME, he was left behind by Vallar when they left to the West in order to keep eye on ME and guide first elves (and may be men). His ability to give orders to trees, to make roads in the wood can be useful to direct elves to the West. Later he retired to a small corner of ME and kept it unchanged as a kind of national park

If Tom was a "steward" though, he doesn't seem to have had any success with "guiding" the Eldar. The Vala Oromë was the first to contact them.

No, Gandalf speaks of him as a "moss-gatherer". To me that means he had no active, intended role in the fates of the denizens of ME, at least in the eyes of the Valar. My own idea is that he could indeed have been an Ainu who entered Eä very early on, and was content to merely observe the unfolding of the Themes.
If, as I think, Ungoliant was a spirit of the same nature following her own agenda, I see no reason why it couldn't have been so with Tom.

When his path crossed that of Frodo and Co. though, Bombadil recognized that the meeting wasn't a random event.

'Did I hear you calling? Nay, I did not hear: I was busy singing. Just chance brought me then, if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine, though I was waiting for you.'

So, he implies there was a plan, but it wasn't his. He was the master of himself, yet he still saw there was a greater force than he.
That says to me that while Tom had been allowed by the Maker to do his own thing in Middle-earth, he was still used to accomplish things not of his own design.

I suppose what I mean to say is that I see Bombadil as having no particular agenda. He just was, and seems to have had a pretty idyllic existence.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Bombadil is not mentioned in The Silmarillion.

Totally agree, it's Istari, who were mentioned there.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If Tom was a "steward" though, he doesn't seem to have had any success with "guiding" the Eldar. The Vala Oromë was the first to contact them.

I did not mean contact, I rather meant he could do some arrangements secretly. And gathering some information for Valar. He could also be on a special mission from Eru.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

No, Gandalf speaks of him as a "moss-gatherer". To me that means he had no active, intended role in the fates of the denizens of ME, at least in the eyes of the Valar. My own idea is that he could indeed have been an Ainu who entered Eä very early on, and was content to merely observe the unfolding of the Themes.
If, as I think, Ungoliant was a spirit of the same nature following her own agenda, I see no reason why it couldn't have been so with Tom.

Gandalf says: he IS a moths-gatherer, that doesn't mean he always was. I think he is close to the soul of ME as someone who always was there, and he helps ME to keep its identity waterer changes it goes through. He preserves the sense of living their. And I believe this is the fate of ME that they were talking about in the end. But I still think that he could have been a secret supervisor over first children of Eru and a kind of gardener of their forest who retired when they became ready to be on there own.

I do not insist on this, I just like the idea. Yours is similarly good for me. He is enigma.

[Lalwendë]

No, I don't think Bombadil was one of the blue wizards. However, it's not a silly idea as part of the function of him is to serve as an enigma, to enrich the world Tolkien built and you may hang what you will on him. If Tolkien had not included Tom then the books would have been all the worse for it - there are many things in our world that are hard or even impossible to explain and if Tolkien had left everything easy to explain then it would be a flat and dull experience.

I have my own ideas like anyone else.

I've at times thought that Tom might be an embodiment of Eru, an idea drawn from the clues that he is 'the eldest' and when Goldberry describes him to Frodo simply as "He is".

Who are you, Master?' he asked.
'Eh, what?' said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. 'Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river nd the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'

However, I'm not so sure about that now. I do think of Eru as a bit tricksy but maybe Tom is too tricksy...

Anyway, it all brings me back to my thoughts some seven years ago about the Rings, about Sanwe and about the Fea and Hroa. The biggest clue perhaps to Tom is when he puts on the One ring and does not disappear.

'Show me the precious Ring!' he said suddenly in the midst of the He cle story: and Frodo, to his own astonishment, drew out the chain from his pocket, and unfastening the Ring handed it at once to Tom.
It seemed to grow larger as it lay for a moment on his big brown-skinned hand. Then suddenly he put it to his eye and laughed. For a second the hobbits had a vision, both comical and alarming, of his bright blue eye gleaming through a circle of gold. Then Tom put the Ring around the end of his little finger and held it up to the candlelight. For a moment the hobbits noticed nothing strange about this. Then they gasped. There was no sign of Tom disappearing!

Tom laughed again, and then he spun the Ring in the air--and it vanished with a flash. Frodo gave a cry--and Tom leaned forward and handed it back to him with a smile.

And Tom also knows where Frodo is when wearing the ring:

'Hey there!' cried Tom, glancing towards him with a most seeing look in his shining eyes. 'Hey! Come Frodo, there! Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil's not as blind as that yet. Take off your golden ring! Your hand's more fair without it. Come back! Leave your game and sit down beside me! We must talk a while more, and think about the morning. Tom must teach the right road, and keep your feet from wandering.'

Tom isn't affected by the ring, nor does he think of it as much more than a frivolous trinket. Does he know of it through gossip with neighbours outside the Forest?

So it gets me thinking again about how the Ring (and other rings) works and why it does not work the same with Tom. I believe that one purpose of the One Ring and the seven and nine rings was to work on breaking the barrier of the hroa and gaining control of the bearers' minds through sanwe. In the case of the nine rings, they had a devastating effect and stripped Men of their hroar, and the rings then had a 'binding' effect upon them - effectively that their physical being was removed and replaced only with what those rings gave them. I think the seven were intended to work this way but were not effective, given that Dwarves had a different origin and were a race apart.

The One ring, in my opinion, has the effect on a mortal (Man or Hobbit) of stripping the hroa away in some temporary way and instead binding them with the Ring itself. Their mind is laid entirely bare to those with the necessary power/skill to probe it. And overuse of the One ring also has the effect of gradually weakening the hroa as it is made to exist far longer than it ought - see the terrible effects on Gollum. Others, such as Maiar and Elves are terrified of the effects of it - because they know it will have bad effects on them personally, or because they know what it will give them the ability to do? That's a good question...and worth bearing in mind the contrast between Gandalf and Saruman in their attitudes.

Tom has no fear (that's not to say he has no fea ). If he is a Maia, then he must have an incredible strength to be able to wear it without showing fear or greed and toss it aside. It's a possibility that he is a Maia, on an equal footing with Sauron, as he is able to see Frodo while he wears it.

But my favourite theory is that he is something apart, something older and more elemental, and tied to Middle-earth itself right from the creation of it. Gandalf says he is a "moss gatherer" which hints at 'stone' of you think of the old saying. He is also like the air if you think of his singing. His wife is the "river daughter", hinting at water. His neighbour is Old Man Willow, which of course is wood. Tom, in my favourite theory, is simply part of the fabric of Middle-earth, and beyond frivolous concerns such as Necromancer's Rings.