Firiel...

[morwen edhelwen]

the "protagonist" (if the main character in a poem can be called that) of "The Last Ship". What exactly is happening in this poem? We know from the book (LOTR) that mortals are only allowed to sail West with Tolkien's Elves if they have special permission, as Frodo did. So what I don't understand is why the Elves in this poem ask an "ordinary" human girl to sail West with them. Even though this poem is much older than Tolkien's ideas of Elves in LOTR.. and he wanted to make it "fit in", it doesn't make much sense, either here or in the original 1934 version... which I found in another messageboard. Anyone wanting to talk? -Morwen.

[Nerwen]

Short answer: it doesn't fit. Not in itself, anyway.

From memory, though, Tolkien's catch-all explanation for this and other poems included in "Tales from the Perilous Ream", is that they're traditional songs which reflect actual happenings, if at all, only in the distorted way of folklore.

Following that concept, "Firiel" would be some unknown person's idea of how the "sailing into the West" business worked, rather than a true story. You know, just like the "Man in the Moon" poems aren't presented as a factual account of the life and times of Tilion.

[morwen edhelwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Short answer: it doesn't fit. Not in itself, anyway.

From memory, though, Tolkien's catch-all explanation for this and other poems included in "Tales from the Perilous Ream", is that they're traditional songs which reflect actual happenings, if at all, only in the distorted way of folklore.

Following that concept, "Firiel" would be some unknown person's idea of how the "sailing into the West" business worked, rather than a true story. You know, just like the "Man in the Moon" poems aren't presented as a factual account of the life and times of Tilion.

Interesting, Nerwen! So do you, for example, have an idea of what could have "inspired" this particular poem, for instance?

[mark12_30]

Isn't there another side to it?

What lass upon reading that poem doesn't wish "Oh, if only that had been me!" I know I did. It is far more compelling than Shadow Bride, or Princess Mee, for instance; and in a way, it is as heartbreaking as "The Sea Bell."

The point is, that it doesn't fit; WE don't fit. We long for the shores of Aman and cannot get there. As mortals, our destiny is beyond the circles of the world. But we want what the elves have. And for a stunning moment, they offer it to her. We WANT her to say yes, to sail west, and see the white shores.

Instead, she braids her hair, and gets to her day's work. And doesn't our heart break-- not just for her, but for ourselves as well?

[Mithalwen]

In response to another thread I was reading one of Tolkien's letters to Pauline Baynes where he says that these poems are "pictures seen in a tapestry of antiquity" . As has been pointed out they are not factual even in the way say that the song of Beren and Luthien that Aragorn sings in LOTR is .. the immortal elves can preserve their oral tradition in the way that mortals can not.

It has internal "evidence" that this poem has its origins (within the conceit of it being folklore of a created world) in Belfalas where the elves had the harbour Edhellond and where the princes claimed their heritage from an unprecedented union of elf and man (other than for high purpose). Such a place might be conducive to this kind of story. Firiel means mortal woman or she who died. The name was first given to Miriel where it makes sense. It's use in this poem suggests that it doesn't relate to a specific real person, rather a wish or as many fairytales are a warning or explanation of why you can't do what you might wish...

It is lovely but it is middle earth legend not history.

[Faramir Jones]

According to an 'editorial' footnote by Tolkien, which I think people might find interesting:

The name was borne by a princess of Gondor, through whom Aragorn claimed descent from the Southern line. It was also the name of a daughter of Elanor, daughter of Sam, but her name, if connected with the rhyme, must be derived from it; it could not have arisen in Westmarch.

Earlier, Tolkien said that The Man in the Moon Came Down Too Soon and The Last Ship 'must be derived ultimately from Gondor', and that the poems were 'only re-handlings of Southern matter'. So while the stories are of Gondorian origin, we can't be sure what was in the mind of the original Gondorian composer, though I like the suggestion of Nerwen:

"Firiel" would be some unknown person's idea of how the "sailing into the West" business worked, rather than a true story.

[morwen edhelwen]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

In response to another thread I was reading one of Tolkien's letters to Pauline Baynes where he says that these poems are "pictures seen in a tapestry of antiquity" . As has been pointed out they are not factual even in the way say that the song of Beren and Luthien that Aragorn sings in LOTR is .. the immortal elves can preserve their oral tradition in the way that mortals can not.

It has internal "evidence" that this poem has its origins (within the conceit of it being folklore of a created world) in Belfalas where the elves had the harbour Edhellond and where the princes claimed their heritage from an unprecedented union of elf and man (other than for high purpose). Such a place might be conducive to this kind of story. Firiel means mortal woman or she who died. The name was first given to Miriel where it makes sense. It's use in this poem suggests that it doesn't relate to a specific real person, rather a wish or as many fairytales are a warning or explanation of why you can't do what you might wish...

It is lovely but it is middle earth legend not history.

so does anyone have a thought on whether the time of 3 AM and the phrase "looked out" as in "lookout" have any significance? Tolkien could have used "awoke" or 6 AM instead...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by morwen edhelwen

so does anyone have a thought on whether the time of 3 AM and the phrase "looked out" as in "lookout" have any significance? Tolkien could have used "awoke" or 6 AM instead...

Presumably, because dawn in that particular place and time of year came around 3:00 AM. Why should it be 6:00 AM?

If you'll forgive me for saying this, morwen, I think you're being a bit too literal in your interpretation of this poem.

[morwen edhelwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Presumably, because dawn in that particular place and time of year came around 3:00 AM. Why should it be 6:00 AM?

If you'll forgive me for saying this, morwen, I think you're being a bit too literal in your interpretation of this poem.

Of course I forgive you! I just wondered, that's all. I have a... problem with literalism.

[Galadriel55]

I can't resist posting here; I'm totall in love with this poem. It's my favourite by far out of The Tales of T. B.

I think this might be a "myth in a mythology", or a made up story withing a made up story. It fits in ME just like ME fits in our world.

But aside from legendarium logistics, when I read the piece I think of dreams vs realism. Firiel comes to the river dressed as if for a holiday wishing to go with the Elves, and realises that she cannot, and comes back an ordinary person, rational and practical. She's like a person who discovers that their fate/destiny isn't what they would want it to be. Or a child who lost her childhood.

[Faramir Jones]

It is a lovely poem, Galadriel55. I've often wondered how much re-handling was done by the relevant hobbit (or hobbits) of the original Gondorian material, so was interested in what you said:

I think this might be a "myth in a mythology", or a made up story withing a made up story. It fits in ME just like ME fits in our world.

Perhaps the original Gondorian composer, inspired by the going over Sea of so many elves (and two hobbits) at the end of the Third Age, was speculating about how a Gondorian woman would react, given the same opportunity.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Perhaps the original Gondorian composer, inspired by the going over Sea of so many elves (and two hobbits) at the end of the Third Age, was speculating about how a Gondorian woman would react, given the same opportunity.

Or maybe he was inspired by the fact that Elves have to go and Men in general have to stay... And with the Elves leaves the high and beautiful...

[morwen edhelwen]

First off, hi again everyone! Took a break for a while. Anyway, what <i> is unusual about this poem, from an in-universe perspective, is the fact that a woman represents humans- "Men"- as a whole. And I say that as a woman (because yay! I turned 18 on 2nd October!). From the Middle-earth perspective, maybe this poet decided to use a woman instead of a man, because it becomes more poignant when told from a woman's perspective, as a man would possibly want the same thing for different reasons? </i>

[morwen edhelwen]

Is she (Firiel) really a woman technically, though? Somehow I had this idea that she was a young girl, maybe she would (best-case scenario) get married to a farmer/fisherman/blacksmith in a few years, aged about 15 at the time of the poem.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by morwen edhelwen

Is she (Firiel) really a woman technically, though? Somehow I had this idea that she was a young girl, maybe she would (best-case scenario) get married to a farmer/fisherman/blacksmith in a few years, aged about 15 at the time of the poem.

I've always thought that she was somewhere between 15 and 20 - like just before the age that they used to marry at. I guess it depends on what you consider to be a "young girl", but sure - young, unmarried... Though I can't say she's too young.

I don't believe it says anything that could give hints to her age, though I think I assumed her to be young because the story "feels" like she's growing up, letting go of her dreams and innocent ignorance, replacing toys and fancy dresses with work and practical clothing... It might be that when we first see her (when she "looked out") she is a girl, but when she came home and changed beautiful to practical she is a woman.


It's an interesting point that you made about the gender. Maybe Tolkien just wanted the character to be more gentle... so that does come down to poignant. And I think that "Earth's daughter" resonates better than "Earth's son".

And what is it with daughters? Earth's Daughter, River Daughter... The femininity gives a nice ring to it, as well as making the stories more elegant...


Don't kill me for the following few sentences, please...

In some native stories of creation the man appears in different ways, but he is always put there by the god(s)/spirits/etc. The man, then, finds the woman within nature (eg, in one story, she came to him from a cedar tree). Could the mythologies that have influenced Tolkien have similar ideas? The "Nature Daughter" thing is really interesting...


Edit: correction: she is called "Earth-maiden", so she's definitely in her youth.

Edit 2: I think that another reason for this poem to be so poignant (aside from the "growing up" thing) is the words "never more" in the last stanza. Just these two words by themselves are powerful enough, and with the context of the story - absolutely overwhelming.

[morwen edhelwen]

It seems like she spent the whole day outside too... few minutes to humans is 24 hours for Elves. The time compression makes it dreamlike.

[mark12_30]

They call her Earth Maiden; she calls herself Earth's Daughter. But elves are tied to Ea more than men are, so i find that strange. Men escape beyond the circles of the world; elves remain within.

Another picky detail, but I interpret the "Jewelled hem" of her gown differently. I think it's the morning dew. The water was the road to the enchantment; kingfisher, willows, river, elves.

And the reason she has no jewels on the way home, is that the water (and the enchantment) has dried and gone. When she approached the river, she was entering into the enchantment, and the dew became like jewels; but as she turned back to earth, braided her hair, and donned her smock of russet brown, she rejoined the earth.

Sad.

THE LAST SHIP

Firiel looked out at three o'clock:
the grey night was going;
far away a golden cock
clear and shrill was crowing.
The trees were dark, and the dawn pale,
waking birds were cheeping,
a wind moved cool and frail
through dim leaves creeping.

She watched the gleam at window grow,
till the long light was shimmering
on land and leaf; on grass below
grey dew was glimmering.
Over the floor her white feet crept,
down the stair they twinkled,
through the grass they dancing stepped
all with dew besprinkled.

Her gown had jewels upon its hem,
as she ran down to the river,
and leaned upon a willow-stem,
and watched the water quiver.
A kingfisher plunged down like a stone
in a blue flash falling,
bending reeds were softly blown,
lily-leaves were sprawling.

A sudden music to her came,
as she stood there gleaming
with fair hair in the morning's flame
on her shoulders streaming.
Flutes were there, and harps were wrung,
and there was sound of singing,
like wind-voices keen and young
and far bells ringing.

A ship with golden beak and oar
and timbers white came gliding;
swans went sailing on before,
her tall prow guiding.
Fair folk out of Elvenland
in silver-grey were rowing,
and three with crowns she saw there stand
with bright hair flowing.

With harp in hand they sang their song
to the slow oars swinging;
'Green is the land the leaves are long,
and the birds are singing.
Many a day with dawn of gold
this earth will lighten,
many a flower will yet unfold,
ere the cornfields whiten.

'Then whither go ye, boatmen fair,
down the river gliding?
To twilight and to secret lair
in the great forest hiding?
To Northern isles and shores of stone
on strong swans flying,
by cold waves to dwell alone
with the white gulls crying?'

'Nay!' they answered. 'Far away
on the last road faring,
leaving western havens grey,
the seas of shadow daring,
we go back to Elvenhome,
where the White Tree is growing,
and the Star shines upon the foam
on the last shore flowing.

'To mortal fields say farewell,
Middle-earth forsaking!
In Elvenhome a clear bell
in the high tower is shaking.
Here grass fades and leaves fall,
and sun and moon wither,
and we have heard the far call
that bids us journey thither'.

The oars were stayed. They turned aside:
'Do you hear the call, Earth-maiden?
Firiel! Firiel!' they cried,
'Our ship is not full-laden.
One more only we may bear.
Come! For your days are speeding.
Come! Earth-maiden elven-fair,
our last call heeding.'

Firiel looked from the river-bank,
one step daring;
then deep in clay her feet sank,
and she halted staring.
Slowly the elven-ship went by
whispering through the water;
'I cannot come!' they heard her cry.
'I was born Earth's daughter!'

No jewels bright her gown bore,
as she walked back from the meadow
under roof and dark door,
under the house-shadow.
She donned her smock of russet brown,
her long hair braided,
and to her work came stepping down.
Soon the sunlight faded.

Year still after year flows
down the Seven Rivers;
cloud passes, sunlight glows,
reed and willow quivers
at morn and eve, but never more
westward ships have waded
in mortal waters as before,
and their song has faded.

-JRR TOLKIEN
"The Tolkien Reader"
C 1966

[mark12_30]

In complete contrast-- but notice how the water plays into this poem as well, and how the enchantments are described:

The Stolen Child
by W. B. Yeats


Where dips the rocky highland
Of Sleuth Wood in the lake,
There lies a leafy island
Where flapping herons wake
The drowsy water rats;
There we've hid our faery vats,
Full of berrys
And of reddest stolen cherries.
Come away, O human child!
To the waters and the wild
With a faery, hand in hand,
For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand.

Where the wave of moonlight glosses
The dim gray sands with light,
Far off by furthest Rosses
We foot it all the night,
Weaving olden dances
Mingling hands and mingling glances
Till the moon has taken flight;
To and fro we leap
And chase the frothy bubbles,
While the world is full of troubles
And anxious in its sleep.
Come away, O human child!
To the waters and the wild
With a faery, hand in hand,
For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand.

Where the wandering water gushes
From the hills above Glen-Car,
In pools among the rushes
That scarce could bathe a star,
We seek for slumbering trout
And whispering in their ears
Give them unquiet dreams;
Leaning softly out
From ferns that drop their tears
Over the young streams.
Come away, O human child!
To the waters and the wild
With a faery, hand in hand,
For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand.

Away with us he's going,
The solemn-eyed:
He'll hear no more the lowing
Of the calves on the warm hillside
Or the kettle on the hob
Sing peace into his breast,
Or see the brown mice bob
Round and round the oatmeal chest.
For he comes, the human child,
To the waters and the wild
With a faery, hand in hand,
For the world's more full of weeping than he can understand.

[morwen edhelwen]

there was an implication in the poem that she died years later. Notice how she's not mentioned in the last stanza. I think the "earth's daughter" thing is a reference to origins. Humans originated on Earth; the Elves are from Valinor- no longer "part of Earth"- but separate from the visible world, and no human, hobbit, or non-Elf/Maia/Vala can go there without special permission. I read the original 1934 poem somewhere on theOneRing.net, which ends with her rejoining her family, parents, siblings, cousins etc, and its implied that she was only briefly tempted to leave.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by morwen edhelwen

there was an implication in the poem that she died years later. Notice how she's not mentioned in the last stanza.

Since she's mortal she dies eventually. I think that the last stanza refers to the whole mortal world rather than her as an individual. And the "time leap" is a much longer leap than a lifespan of a human. "Never" - eternity. Firiel might have passed on, and her children and grandchildren etc, but one thing that stays the same is that the Elves (and whatever they symbolise in your eyes) forsook our world forever.

[morwen edhelwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Since she's mortal she dies eventually. I think that the last stanza refers to the whole mortal world rather than her as an individual. And the "time leap" is a much longer leap than a lifespan of a human. "Never" - eternity. Firiel might have passed on, and her children and grandchildren etc, but one thing that stays the same is that the Elves (and whatever they symbolise in your eyes) forsook our world forever.

Yeah, that fits... about the jewels on the dress and the water symbolising the enchantment.. does that mean that (whether literally or metaphorically) when Firiel stepped out near the water, her clothes were transformed into a jewelled dress?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by morwen edhelwen

about the jewels on the dress and the water symbolising the enchantment.. does that mean that (whether literally or metaphorically) when Firiel stepped out near the water, her clothes were transformed into a jewelled dress?

I think Helen meant that there were no actual jewels at any point; there were dew drops. No transformations, just a metaphor-symbolism-thing-whatever.

I really like that interpretation. I wanted to rep that post, but apparently I have been picky lately.