Firiel... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Nerwen · 08-26-2010, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morwen edhelwen

so does anyone have a thought on whether the time of 3 AM and the phrase "looked out" as in "lookout" have any significance? Tolkien could have used "awoke" or 6 AM instead...

Presumably, because dawn in that particular place and time of year came around 3:00 AM. Why should it be 6:00 AM?

If you'll forgive me for saying this, morwen, I think you're being a bit too literal in your interpretation of this poem.

morwen edhelwen · 08-26-2010, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Presumably, because dawn in that particular place and time of year came around 3:00 AM. Why should it be 6:00 AM?

If you'll forgive me for saying this, morwen, I think you're being a bit too literal in your interpretation of this poem.

Of course I forgive you! I just wondered, that's all.

I have a... problem with literalism.

Galadriel55 · 10-01-2011, 02:04 PM

I can't resist posting here; I'm totall in love with this poem. It's my favourite by far out of The Tales of T. B.

I think this might be a "myth in a mythology", or a made up story withing a made up story. It fits in ME just like ME fits in our world.

But aside from legendarium logistics, when I read the piece I think of dreams vs realism. Firiel comes to the river dressed as if for a holiday wishing to go with the Elves, and realises that she cannot, and comes back an ordinary person, rational and practical. She's like a person who discovers that their fate/destiny isn't what they would want it to be. Or a child who lost her childhood.

Faramir Jones · 10-02-2011, 08:24 AM

It is a lovely poem, Galadriel55. I've often wondered how much re-handling was done by the relevant hobbit (or hobbits) of the original Gondorian material, so was interested in what you said:

I think this might be a "myth in a mythology", or a made up story withing a made up story. It fits in ME just like ME fits in our world.

Perhaps the original Gondorian composer, inspired by the going over Sea of so many elves (and two hobbits) at the end of the Third Age, was speculating about how a Gondorian woman would react, given the same opportunity.

Galadriel55 · 10-02-2011, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Perhaps the original Gondorian composer, inspired by the going over Sea of so many elves (and two hobbits) at the end of the Third Age, was speculating about how a Gondorian woman would react, given the same opportunity.

Or maybe he was inspired by the fact that Elves have to go and Men in general have to stay... And with the Elves leaves the high and beautiful...

morwen edhelwen · 11-09-2011, 07:52 PM

First off, hi again everyone! Took a break for a while. Anyway, what <i> is unusual about this poem, from an in-universe perspective, is the fact that a woman represents humans- "Men"- as a whole. And I say that as a woman (because yay! I turned 18 on 2nd October!). From the Middle-earth perspective, maybe this poet decided to use a woman instead of a man, because it becomes more poignant when told from a woman's perspective, as a man would possibly want the same thing for different reasons? </i>

morwen edhelwen · 11-09-2011, 07:57 PM

Is she (Firiel) really a woman technically, though? Somehow I had this idea that she was a young girl, maybe she would (best-case scenario) get married to a farmer/fisherman/blacksmith in a few years, aged about 15 at the time of the poem.

10-01-2011, 02:04 PM	#3
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,517	Nice thread! I can't resist posting here; I'm totall in love with this poem. It's my favourite by far out of The Tales of T. B. I think this might be a "myth in a mythology", or a made up story withing a made up story. It fits in ME just like ME fits in our world. But aside from legendarium logistics, when I read the piece I think of dreams vs realism. Firiel comes to the river dressed as if for a holiday wishing to go with the Elves, and realises that she cannot, and comes back an ordinary person, rational and practical. She's like a person who discovers that their fate/destiny isn't what they would want it to be. Or a child who lost her childhood. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

10-02-2011, 08:24 AM	#4
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	How much 're-handling'? It is a lovely poem, Galadriel55. I've often wondered how much re-handling was done by the relevant hobbit (or hobbits) of the original Gondorian material, so was interested in what you said: I think this might be a "myth in a mythology", or a made up story withing a made up story. It fits in ME just like ME fits in our world. Perhaps the original Gondorian composer, inspired by the going over Sea of so many elves (and two hobbits) at the end of the Third Age, was speculating about how a Gondorian woman would react, given the same opportunity.

11-09-2011, 07:52 PM	#6
morwen edhelwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 91	What is unusual... First off, hi again everyone! Took a break for a while. Anyway, what <i> is unusual about this poem, from an in-universe perspective, is the fact that a woman represents humans- "Men"- as a whole. And I say that as a woman (because yay! I turned 18 on 2nd October!). From the Middle-earth perspective, maybe this poet decided to use a woman instead of a man, because it becomes more poignant when told from a woman's perspective, as a man would possibly want the same thing for different reasons? </i> __________________ "Firiel looked out at three o'clock, The grey night was going" - J.R.R. Tolkien, "The Last Ship"

11-09-2011, 07:57 PM	#7
morwen edhelwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 91	Oh, another thing Is she (Firiel) really a woman technically, though? Somehow I had this idea that she was a young girl, maybe she would (best-case scenario) get married to a farmer/fisherman/blacksmith in a few years, aged about 15 at the time of the poem. __________________ "Firiel looked out at three o'clock, The grey night was going" - J.R.R. Tolkien, "The Last Ship"