Unfinished Tales - Part One - II - Narn I Hín Húrin

[Guinevere]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

It's just as much a companion piece to the (EDITED) Silmarillion

That's what it is for me - a most welcome complement to the Silmarillion! In the Silmarillion, everything is just briefly told, the protagonists are remote, mythical heroes with whom I cannot really sympathize. It was only when reading the Narn i Hin Hurin in Unfinished Tales, that those characters became real and "alive" for me and I could appreciate the story. It is good that finally "The Children of Hurin" was published where both parts (which were merged only in my head before) came together.

The characters are described very accuratly and realistically. Túrin as a boy has all my sympathy. Even before the Curse, he didn't have an easy childhood, with such a coldhearted mother! It speaks for him that he wasn't jealous of his little sister but was really fond of her.
The only person I do not like, and cannot understand is Morwen. Húrin, on the other hand, is shown as a warmhearted and affectionate father, but too often absent. Túrin's friendship with Sador is very touching. And Sador is quite a wise but humble man, I found no less than six "proverbs" in his speech!

[Galadriel55]

Although I've read COH many times already, only when I started reading the Narn I understood why I am so drawn to Morwen, over the other female characters, despite all her faults. She has such an overwhelming willpower that I feel reaching out of the pages to me. It pays for any flaws of hers in my eyes.

The only person I do not like, and cannot understand is Morwen.

This seems to be quite a common reaction on the Downs. I feel lonely in this respect. I understand and admire Morwen, though I can't really explain how or why.

So far I've read up to "The Words of Hurin and Morgoth", and I didn't notice any difference between UT and COH.

[Galadriel55]

The only difference I noticed so far between COH and UT was the addition of the Dragon-helm's history. Interesting facts.

Something about Turin that for some reason I did not mark in the chapter in the Sil:

Fear both the heat and the cold of your heart.

~per Melian

As always, Melian sees right through to the point. So many of Turin's misfortunes fell because these two moods replace on another very quickly.


~~~


After the lighthearted mood of Tuor and his Comming to Gondolin, the Narn seems to be even heavier and gloomier. But personally, unlike the majority, the latter appeals to me more. "Of Tuor..." lacks the depth of tragedy. No matter how beautiful the tale is, I always thought/felt that sad stories are much much much more deep, moving, and they just have some quality that happy stories don't.

I don't know if it's just me (it's entirely possible: my parents ask me why my piano repertoire that I get to choose is entirely minor and just sounds like a funeral, and I tell them that I can't play most major things with emotion, and sometimes playing major pieces makes me sick). My whole family prefers happy endings to stories, and I always go for the tragical ones. That might explain why I like COH / Narn so much.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I've decided to allow us another week for the first part of this long chapter. That will give us time to catch up and encourage additional discussion before we move on.

[Galadriel55]

There is one note that caught my attention more than the others:

Note 7:

A marginal note in the text says here: "Always he sught in all faces of women the face of Lalaith."

This might be the reason for his friendship with Nellas, but also: compare:

"Turin, have you lived always with your heart and half your mind far away?"

~Beleg

"That was long ago, or so my childhood now seems, and a mist is over it - save only the memmory of my father's house in Dor-lomin."

~Turin

"I had a sister, Lalaith, or so I named her; and of her you put me in mind. But Lalaith was a child, a yellow flower in the green grass of spring; and had she lived she would now, maybe, have become dimmed with grief. But you are queenly, and as a golden tree; I would I had a sister so fair."

~Turin to Finduilas in COH


And this might also be one of the reasons that Turin marries Niniel (he feels odd around her because she's also his sister, but I wouldn't exclude the possibility of her being similar to Lalaith in some way either).

Originally Posted by Boro

It's probably one of the most painful (or maybe chilling?) thought Morgoth says to Hurin. We've been trying to answer what happens to us after death forever. And the thought of the 'Nothing' that awaits is certainly different, and terrifying. In some ways, perhapse more terrifying than the thought of eternal damnation. Granted, that thought isn't pleasant either, but it's certainly different from 'Nothing.'

I think that the most chilling part is the capital letter in "Nothing". Not that Hurin would hear the diffrence, but it has its effect on the reader. If it was just "nothing" - that's something more familiar (how many times have you said that you're doing nothing? - as an example). It's just a complete negative. But Nothing is now a thing, an actual something.... if that makes any sense.

[Guinevere]

The "Words of Húrin and Morgoth" make me really admire Húrin for his incredible courage and steadfastness (he is my favourite hero)- but probably it wasn't wise to mock Morgoth to his face! Would Morgoth have been less cruel if Húrin had just kept silent?

And what about Húrin crying out: "Marrer of Middle-earth, would that I might see thee face to face, and mar thee as my lord Fingolfin did!" Was "fate" at work to make this rash wish come true?

I can sympathize with Morwen when she tells Túrin "It is heavy on me in evil days to judge what is best to do." and the parting of mother and son is heartbreaking and proves that Morwen has feelings after all, even if she shows little of them.
But I just cannot understand her stubborn pride. After Túrin had arrived safely in Doriath and Thingol's messengers invited Morwen to come with them to Doriath - that would have been the safest opportunity to flee, with the Elves accompanying her and the baby! Why couldn't she overcome her foolish pride for the sake of her children?

To me it looks like Túrin inherited all his negative character traits from his mother.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

The "Words of Húrin and Morgoth" make me really admire Húrin for his incredible courage and steadfastness (he is my favourite hero)- but probably it wasn't wise to mock Morgoth to his face! Would Morgoth have been less cruel if Húrin had just kept silent?

Silence could also be mocking. Keeping quiet sometimes is just as bad as talking. And can you imagine what Morgoth would have done if Hurin didn't say a word?!

For me, this line stands out the most from the chapter:

Blind you are Morgoth Bauglir, and blind shall ever be, seeing only the dark. You know not what rules the hearts of Men, and if you knew you could not give it.

This shows Hurin's insight more than the talk about the Valar.

And what about Húrin crying out: "Marrer of Middle-earth, would that I might see thee face to face, and mar thee as my lord Fingolfin did!" Was "fate" at work to make this rash wish come true?

Hmm. Possibly.

I can sympathize with Morwen when she tells Túrin "It is heavy on me in evil days to judge what is best to do." and the parting of mother and son is heartbreaking and proves that Morwen has feelings after all, even if she shows little of them.

Of course she has feelings! What is she, a block of wood? I don't understand why she is viewed so negatively.

But I just cannot understand her stubborn pride. After Túrin had arrived safely in Doriath and Thingol's messengers invited Morwen to come with them to Doriath - that would have been the safest opportunity to flee, with the Elves accompanying her and the baby!

No, no, no, no, no. No. You don't understand her at all. She is the kind of person that holds pride and honour above all else, even life. If Aerin didn't offer her help, Morwen would have starved to death before she asked anyone for help herself, much less a stranger. And that was a situation of life and death. Going to Doriath was a choice between harsh life and harsh journey but better life as a guest. She would not live her life as a guest, as a beggar. Whatever happens to her, she will not beg.

She is a person with immense willpower. She has high expectations for herself and for others, and her will is what keeps her up, keeps her strong. She is never weak. Her willpower suppresses her deepest feelings (which shows just how much it pained her to send Turin away, since she could not resist the grief). In my opinion, the light in her eyes is a reflection of her inner power.

Morwen is no angel. But I respect and admire her. And I understand her.

To me it looks like Túrin inherited all his negative character traits from his mother.

Disagreed again. I already quoted Melian's words about his character:

Fear both the heat and the cold of your heart.

The coldness comes from Morwen, but the heat from Hurin. Neither is bad by itself - what makes the combination so bad is that Turin doesn't control them.


What do you think of Hurin and Morwen's debate in The Childhood of Turin, when Hurin wants them to flee to Brethil and Morwen to Doriath, and they forebode a tragedy in both? It's puzzling to me that each parent seems to sense only part of their children's story, together foreshadow the story almost in full (except for the Fall of Nargothrond), and yet make it so that both tragedies came true. Not intentionally or knowingly, but........ well, foreshadowing is foreshadowing.