WW: LXXXVIII - Trouble in the Misty Mountains: Game Thread

[Kitanna]

I feel like Legate is going around pushing buttons today.

What "I told thee so"? I only know her mentioning Pitch on the list. Therefore, I would dare to propose that her initial dream was actually Pitch.

He is continually coming back to this point that Sally dreamt of Pitch. I'm trying to avoid just repeating what has already been said, but I want to know why he's clinging to this? Sally had it in her power to swing the votes toward Kath and attempt to save Pitch, but she didn't. Essentially she did a throw away vote on TEW.

Don't say it twice or I will start pondering lynching you. I mean, I can see you being a Wolf and happily posting this statement. So watch it, because I am watching you. No more trust from me. I don't like it how you push that Boro was innocent, while there are rather good arguments contra. Any chance the WWs are you and Boro (and somebody)?

This is where I first noticed he was pushing buttons. He accuses Nerwen of pushing Boro as the dream because they're packmates.

I see we arrived to the same conclusions. However, I suggest people also ponder my Night 1 - Pitch theory. I know this "re:" stuff is not anything big, but it might be.

But he keeps pushing Pitch. Which is just as suspicious as pushing the living Boro. Here's how I view this:
1) Legate's theory/threat/suspicion isn't without merit. Wolf Nerwen wants the village to trust wolf Boro.
2) Wolf Nerwen is trying to align herself with an innocent. This tactic rarely works in the longrun, but it may buy her time.
3) Wolf Legate doesn't want the village to trust anyone. One known or commonly trusted innocent means one less possible innocent lynch candidate.

In his next post he continues to defend his Pitch theory based on the fact Sally didn't vote for him. But he also says:

But you are maybe right. One would have to look at the votes to see when she voted and all that.

He backtracks when Greenie says something about Sally's votes.

I am not trusting my own shadow anymore.

This "throwaway" comment makes me think Legate is trying to convince us he's a lost and confused innocent.

As for proposing "ridiculous" Pitch-dreamt of - theory, I did not connect the sally's comment with his lynching. Yet I still believe he was a possible dream, and certainly at least as logical as your Boro theory, or in fact, more: I repeat, Boro was not at Sally's trust-list on the second day.

He keeps pushing Pitch. I think he's trying to make Sally's "won't vote" list more important than it was. I mean she only had two dreams before dying. Most of that list was speculation on her part, as much as anyone else's.

Otherwise, I am becoming more and more suspicious of Boro: he is really acting incredibly "Agreeable" in his later posts. As innocent, he is usually far more inquisitive, and really now he just is sort of honey-tongued. I could consider him for my vote.

I don't think so. Boro's playing intelligently, but I wouldn't call it agreeable. I think Boro is less suspicious of being agreeable and more suspicious for arguing over the meaning of words. (Ex: Legate's use of agreeable and Greenie's use of scary).

[A Little Green]

I hate to go to sleep just when things are getting interesting, but unfortunately it's past midnight again. I hope to be able to do some serious rereading toMorrow if I'm still alive; for now, I think I'll go for

++ Nerwen

again. Nothing she has said has made me change my impression of her. Additionally, Sally suspected her late on Day 2. No, I'm not saying she was dreamed of; I think it's pretty obvious that she was not. But the thing is, Sally wasn't, at least in my mind, an obviously Seer-looking Seer. So if the wolves had a few options, it seems plausible that they'd go for the possible Seer that was most likely to dream one of them the next Night. Not sure if I'm making sense, but whether I am or not it's still bed time for me.

[Nerwen]

Given that Greenie has just voted me, this may seem like a retaliation– but it's not that, in fact I'm not saying it has to point at Greenie herself being evil, but it is rather curious.

As has been said, Sally doesn't seem to have said anything that screamed "Seer!" Her lists, for example, are nothing like the hinting lists some Seers make.

Greenie, on the other hand, posted this yesterDay:
#98.

Originally Posted by Greenie

A quick list, based more on feeling than fact since I don't have time to reread as much as I'd wish.

Legate - Feels fine this far.
Sally - Undecided about her. Like I said, she underlines her own innocence in a suspicious way, but reacted to Kath's vote in a relatively innocent way.
Inzil - Bad feeling. Couldn't pinpoint it right now, I'm sure I'd find a reason for the feeling if I reread his posts.
Kath - Good vibes.
Kitanna - Really sharp, not sure about her alignment though!
Bom - Undecided. Initial reaction was "suspicious!", after which I remembered I always think that whatever his role. So a questionmark for now.
Nerwen - Somewhat suspicious because, as stated before, she urged the Pitchwaggon on but backed off when it actually began.
G55 - Good and bad vibes at the same time! Another I'd love to reread.
Boro - Nothing alarming this far.
Azura - Still not around, right?
Laeko_Randalis - Couldn't say.

I think this actually looks more like a coded list than anything Sally posted– note all the "undecideds" and "not sure about alignments". It is true that only one person (Kath) is in the "good vibes" category, but Seers don't always list the people they know of together– too much of a giveaway– and I'd accept Legate's being "fine this far" as a near-equivalent.

I'm just wondering why the wolves bit on Sally instead.

EDIT:X'd with Kitanna.

[Nerwen]

Kitanna, in everything that you've quoted, I'm just expressing honest doubt. I tend to second-guess myself and find counter-arguments to my own arguments. I'm just like that.

And with the Legate– thing– well, yeah, first I shrugged it off, then I started thinking about how peculiar he was being. That's all.

EDIT:X'd with Kath.

[Kath]

Alright, well, internet is ok but it took a lot longer than anticipated so I'm only around the next 15 minutes. Won't have time to really look at people properly as a result so analysis won't be as detailed as yesterDay. Probably going to have to look just at toDays posts and then vote.

I won't be voting for anyone who hasn't posted yet toDay (if there is anyone) as again I think that's unfair.

Greenie - guessing sally's Night 3 dream is fairly pointless as sally can't have told us anything about whoever she dreamt of but good reasoning behind who it might have been. Dreaming possibilities: Boro (then recants it), Inzil, Kath, herself, TEW. That 'razor-sharp' comment could be suspicion or could be digging for a reaction or could be compliment! Votes Nerwen based on previous reasons and based on the idea that the wolves would try to protect WolfNerwen by killing SeerSally. Rather assumes the wolves had figured out sally was the Seer despite her just saying that sally wasn't an obvious Seer.

Nerwen - Dreaming possibilities: Boro, TEW, Kath. Thinks people like Inzil and Greenie are less likely dreams as they are based only on the 'will not vote' list. Am inclined to agree, there is subtle and there is opaque! Like the catch on sally seeming to say her ideas came from the thread alone. Argues dreaming of Pitch with some fair points. That said, if she did dream of him and knew he was innocent rather than Gifted, the danger in trying to save him would be the possibility of pushing someone into the lynch she did not know the role of, and that person ending up Gifted.

Legate - puts credence in the 'will not vote' list. I think the 'I told thee so' with Pitch is interesting. It's a particularly separate sentence, apart from anything else, short and sharp. Could well be the result of a dream. Disagrees with Nerwen (and from a quick read through this seems to continue) about Boro. Here I think we are going to see the effect of one person taking the 'will not vote' list as evidence of dreams and one person not doing so. His statement about not trusting Nerwen was rather aggressively phrased. 'Push' is a very strong term for what Nerwen said about Boro.

Inzil - I can see again what Inzil is saying about sally not trying to save Pitch if she had dreamt of him. The timing is interesting though. After 4 votes for Pitch, a sudden blast of defence from sally wouldn't exactly have been a good way of trying to stay hidden! Some interesting points about Kitanna. She is often voting against her previous posts. Or well, not so much against as she is showing suspicion of the people she is voting for, but that those she votes for don't appear to be her top suspects prior to the vote.

Kitanna - Dreaming possibilities: TEW and Kath. Thinks Nerwen is quite jumpy. Well, yes, but as noted Legate was pretty aggressive. Asks Legate why he holds on to his Pitch theory. Well there are arguments against it but I think there are arguments for it as well. Again, it depends whether or not you use the 'not vote' list as evidence.

Boro - I ... don't get his post. I know Boro can often be a player who really shows his frustration, but he seemed to take that comment from Legate as an attack against him when really it was directed at Nerwen. Sure Legate mentioned suspicion of Boro but the reason for the suspicion was down to Nerwen's aforementioned 'pushing' (that wasn't). It's this whole 'this is probably going to get me lynched' attitude that is throwing me. Is that because he was about to argue against the theory that he had been dreamt of and thus try to disprove his own potential known innocent status? That said, he then comes up with some really interesting thoughts about the dreams. I hadn't thought about TEW being unlikely if sally still wanted to lynch him the next Day. I think we all need to start putting some sort of glossary up explaining exactly what we mean by certain words! After mine and Boro's 'Pitch-wagon' debate yesterDay and now this one with him and Greenie over 'scary'.

Right, posting this, then voting.

[Kath]

Based on that those I would consider voting would be:

Greenie - For such a flip floppy Nerwen vote. Either sally was an obvious Seer who the wolves were afraid would dream of NerwenWolf, or sally was not an obvious Seer. I just don't think you can have it both ways.

Legate - For that very aggressive tone early on. He has pulled it back but it has been commented on toDay that since doing so he has then tried to portray himself a little as a confused innocent. He may very well be that of course, it's just the slide into that after that very confident start that seems odd.

Boro - For changing from fairly calm, considered Boro to angry!frustrated!argumentative! Boro all in one go. Could be the result of the loss of two Gifteds and therefore his attempt to play more calmly went out the window. Or he's a wolf who has stopped being so bothered about keeping a calm cover after the loss of two Gifteds.

Because I feel my reasoning for Greenie is less so-so than for the others:

++GREENIE

And to bed.

NOTE: Will have crossposted with everyone since my last but one post.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I don't think so. Boro's playing intelligently, but I wouldn't call it agreeable. I think Boro is less suspicious of being agreeable and more suspicious for arguing over the meaning of words. (Ex: Legate's use of agreeable and Greenie's use of scary).

Fairy nuff (and to Kath's latest posts which I crossed with). Nothing really frustrates me more about this, than being suspected with unexplained and vague statements. I used to be able to ignore it because they were never really serious, but lately seems like you can easily get lynched if someone says you look scary or are "up to something." It just leaves me to throw my hands up, like sorry, what do you want me to do about always being up something?

And Greenie, glad you don't want to get into the semantics. If I was coming off as bullish, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. I was trying to expresss the frustration, while also saying if you suspect me, then suspect me. Because I know you're better than that to give me a fair chance to defend suspicions.