Silmarillion - Chapter 21 - Of Túrin Turambar

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Moreover, we don't know how the story would have been if Turin took a different course of action. We think that if he fought his pride and stayed in Doriath he would meet Morwen and Ninenor and later Hurin and live "happily ever after".

You know, this is actually a really good point. Although I pretty much fall into the camp that does sympathize with Turin and find him an essentially heroic character, I do tend to assume that the 'right' choices that Turin frequently failed to make would have averted the tragedies that befell him. But we don't know that this is so. Those imaginary universes where Turin remained in Doriath, where he listened to Gelmir and Arminas, or where he saved Finduilas from the Orcs still have plenty of scope in them for tragedy, and one wonders whether by making those decisions Turin would have escaped the curse or merely forced it to take a different route to meet him.

It is interesting how much detail and weight and importance Turin's story has both in the history of Arda and in Tolkien's mind (as evident from Aiwendil's post), even though it is like an aside in the history of the Silmarilli, bing unconnected to them(at least directly). It of course deserves to be such, but it does makes me wonder.

You know, it occurs to me that in the larger context of the history of the First Age, probably the most important event in this story is the fall of Nargothrond. Indeed, if one considers this and the subsequent two chapters, we have a trilogy of stories each of which revolves to some extent around the fall of one of the Elves' hidden kingdoms: here Nargothrond, in the next chapter Doriath, and in the chapter after that Gondolin.

To touch on another point that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread yet, one of the interesting things about the Turin saga (and there are lots of interesting things about it) is that it is a rare case where Tolkien, though somewhat grudgingly and disapprovingly, seems to have endorsed the game of 'source-hunting' - that is, of looking for literary or mythological antecedents to his stories and characters. In his letter to Milton Waldman he even names some sources himself:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

There is the Children of Húrin, the tragic tale of Túrin Turambar and his sister Níniel – of which Túrin is the hero: a figure that might be said (by people who like that sort of thing, though it is not very useful) to be derived from elements in Sigurd the Volsung, Oedipus, and the Finnish Kullervo.

The connections of these three characters with Turin seem pretty obvious once they've been pointed out: like Kullervo, Turin desires vengeance against his family’s enemies; like both Kullervo and Oedipus he is unwittingly involved in incest; like Kullervo he commits suicide after asking his sword if it is willing to kill him; like Sigurd, he kills a dragon by hiding underneath it and striking it from below as it passes.

It seems that the character whose story Tolkien spent the most time working on was also perhaps (in a sense) Tolkien's least original character. And yet, in a different sense, Turin is undeniably an original character, notwithstanding his explicit connection with those three sources. Here we have one of the best examples of Tolkien's ability to take myths and ancient stories and not simply to rework them or reinterpret them, but to use them as building blocks (and very solid building blocks they are) in the creation of something altogether new.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Moreover, we don't know how the story would have been if Turin took a different course of action. We think that if he fought his pride and stayed in Doriath he would meet Morwen and Ninenor and later Hurin and live "happily ever after". Well, not really, but he would have a happier end. And what if something happened that would cause disastorous events in Doriath? Such as the sac of Doriath being before Elwing got the Silmaril? That would have been a worse end in my opinion. The same goes to other "opportunities".

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

You know, this is actually a really good point. Although I pretty much fall into the camp that does sympathize with Turin and find him an essentially heroic character, I do tend to assume that the 'right' choices that Turin frequently failed to make would have averted the tragedies that befell him. But we don't know that this is so. Those imaginary universes where Turin remained in Doriath, where he listened to Gelmir and Arminas, or where he saved Finduilas from the Orcs still have plenty of scope in them for tragedy, and one wonders whether by making those decisions Turin would have escaped the curse or merely forced it to take a different route to meet him.

I know I've mentioned this somewhere else, but I have a more fundamental reason for believing Túrin was capable of overcoming Morgoth's curse.

I take it as a basic tenant that in Tolkien's Arda, evil was not allowed to oppress the Children of Ilúvatar beyond their capacity to resist. I simply don't believe that Morgoth, Sauron, or any workers of evil had carte blache to act as they would. There were limits, though perhaps they themselves were unaware of them.

Also, if nothing Túrin could have done could have led him to a better fate, why were all the apparent 'good' choices presented to him?
If Túrin had met a bad end in spite of making all the 'right' decisions, I know that I would have more respect and sympathy for him.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Also, if nothing Túrin could have done could have led him to a better fate, why were all the apparent 'good' choices presented to him?

I would replace"good" with "better".

Originally Posted by Inzil

If Túrin had met a bad end in spite of making all the 'right' decisions, I know that I would have more respect and sympathy for him.

But that would totally ruin the story.

[Galadriel55]

There's one thing I keep forgetting to mention, even though it's like the most important argument of all. I think that just the fact that Turin makes the wrong decisions (from the readers perspective, as well as what they turn out to be in the future) all the time is enough reason to find pity for him.

Inzil, on the other hand, uses that reason to say the opposite.