Silmarillion - Chapter 21 - Of Túrin Turambar

[Galadriel55]

First of all, this is one of my favourite chapters, though it is quite complicated and messy. When I first read it, I was so sick and tired of all the curses that I did not read COH until about a month later. But later on I came to really like Turin's story. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's the mix of irony and tragedy that appeals to me.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Does anyone care to make a list of all the names Túrin assumes in the course of his life?!

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have the books in my hand to check, and there might be some names from COH that don't appear in The Sil...

Turin
Neithan
Gorthol
Agarwaen son of Umarth
Adanedhel (Given by Elves of Nargothrond)
Mormegil (Given by Elves of Nargothrond)
Thurin (Given by Finduilas)
Wildman of the Woods
Turambar
Dagnir Glaurunga (this one was given to him after his death)

Do you think Finduilas' love could have influenced Túrin positively, or would a relationship between them not have been allowed to happen under those circumstances?

I think that before we get to the "woud it have been allowed by fate" question, we should consider if it was actually possible on a more simple level. Turin loved Finduilas in a peculiar way. On one hand, they were lovers. On the other hand, he saw her as a mother and a queen (paraphrasing a quote here). It is a bit of an awkward relationship. I think that sometimes she reminded him of Nellas (though he didn't realise it), bringing nostalgic feelings.

At which point(s) in the story do you think Túrin's fate could have turned? Could he have escaped the doom that was his fate?

I think that he was given many "chances", but for one reason or another he did not take them. Yet, maybe, those chances were also illusions, and the curse would have turned them into yet worse choices.

If Morwen dropped her pride and came to Doriath right away, if Turin stayed there, if he would listen to Beleg, if he didn't give away Nargothrond's secrecy, if he would listen to Cirdan's messengers, if he didn't listen to Glaurung, if he saved Finduilas instead of going home, if he wasn't so aggressive in Brodda's house as to kill his friends and kin, if he went to Doriath right after, if Morwen and Nienor stayed in Doriath, if Nienor didn't come up that hill, if Turin recognised his sister, if he didn't subcontiously take over Brandir's role, if, if, if...

Wow, that is one long sentence. And a long list that is *still* incomplete.

But I think the biggest "if" of all is, "if Turin could understand his own heart and the hearts of others..." Quite a lot of his troubles come because he has no clue what is going on. Like his fight with Saeros and refusal to stay in / go back to Doriath. Like he didn't see how Mim - who was once very fond of him - and Beleg did not go together. Like the love triangle in Nargothrond. Like he brought trouble on his kin in Dor-Lomin. Like the whole thing with Brandir.

As either Gelmir or Arminas said, he takes councel with himself and his sword only. He doesn't listen to advice. He puts faith blindly in his own strength and skills. Sometimes it seems as though he is obsessed with something and purposely ignorant of everything else.

Other sources for this story can be found in The Lays of Beleriand and The Children of Húrin. How do the various accounts differ? What remains the same? Though we are mainly discussing the Silmarillion version, there is certainly room for comparisons.

The difference between The Sil and COH that I always noticed is Mim's betrayal. In The Sil he is captured by orcs who force him to give away the location where Turin is abiding. In COH, Mim leaves Amon Rudh under the pretence of gathering roots but searches for the orcs. I somehow favour the Sil version. Mim is not really evil. He never really wanted to do evil; he wanted revenge.

Mim is a very curious character. He is more than a bit mysterious and unpredictable. Sometimes there are sparks of nobility and pride in him, but at other times he is just a miserable greedy coward, valuing his neck above all others, and giving heed to no virtues. The first time we see this is when he hands over Bar-en-Danwedh over to Turin's men. In this case he is pressured by his own captivity, and Khim's wound, but the idea stays the same. The second time is when he betrays Bar-en-Danwedh to the orcs. And the third - when upon meeting Hurin he begs him to take all the treasures of Nargothrond and save his life.

Taking the first example from above, the fathers that we see - Hurin and Mim - are like each other's antipodes. When they are captured and their families are threatened, Hurin is proud, defiant, and in a way open, even in front of Morgoth. Mim is sneaky, begging, hiding. He was offended when the Outlaws bound him (at least in COH); Hurin wasn't exactly offended, he merely laughed and mocked Morgoth. Which showed more pride? Mim' pride certainly was less high than Hurin's. And it was for lower causes.

I'm not sure what to make of that father-contrast. It just is.

Edit: xed with Zil.