“Thee” and “thou” in “The Lord of the Rings”

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original. I'll start it off with the German translation - the older one, as I don't have the newer, and have no idea what it did to these quotes in its often unsuccessful attempt to modernize the text. Perhaps someone else has it and can compare.

The German translation (by Carroux) uses the archaic "Ihr" and "Euch" as the formal personal pronoun, then switches to "Du" when Éowyn speaks to Aragorn. It gives her speech a very personal, almost intimate feeling and makes the indirect declaration of love stand out from the rest of their previous conversation. Since the familiar and formal pronouns are still in use today, it doesn't feel that strange or far away to a modern reader.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original.

In modern Russian, the respectful/deferential "you" is "you" in plural... So, like vous in French. However, as far as we know, in archaic Russian, everyone was addressed with the singular "you", regardless of rank. Unless, of course, the speaker is referring to a group of people.

So, in my Russian translation, there is no change in the Aragorn-Eowyn speach.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original. I'll start it off with the German translation - the older one, as I don't have the newer, and have no idea what it did to these quotes in its often unsuccessful attempt to modernize the text. Perhaps someone else has it and can compare.

The German translation (by Carroux) uses the archaic "Ihr" and "Euch" as the formal personal pronoun, then switches to "Du" when Éowyn speaks to Aragorn. It gives her speech a very personal, almost intimate feeling and makes the indirect declaration of love stand out from the rest of their previous conversation. Since the familiar and formal pronouns are still in use today, it doesn't feel that strange or far away to a modern reader.

Hi Esty!

I remember you mentioning how you considered starting a thread on this subject and I glad you did. Learning why Tolkien did this has given me a new and deeper understanding for these passages.

The passage you originally quoted, the exchange between Eowyn and Aragorn, did jump out to me when I first read it as an adult in English (in Swedish this particular significance it's probably lost in translation), mostly because I at the time had the notion that the "Thee" and the "Thou" etc were the formal personal pronouns, and that "You" was a familiar. But with this interpretation Eowyn's switch from one form to another didn't make much sense, which is why I took notice and was puzzled. Then I promptly forgot about it.

What you wrote in the op explains well why I had got this (obviously faulty) notion.

Originally Posted by Esty

To us nowadays, “thee” sounds antiquated and therefore formal, so it no longer carries the meaning it once had, of a close relationship between speaker and listener.

Also, in Swedish, a familiar term is "Du", which is translated to "You", and when I hear "You" in English I automatically think of the familiar "Du", not the formal "Ni", although the latter is also translated into "You". In addition, the formal personal pronouns have fallen out of use in Sweden. So when I see one antiquated term such as "Thee" I guess I associate it with another one, that is "Ni".

Denethor and the Mouth would use the familiar terms (sorry if this has been mentioned already) as a conscious insult when they speak to Gandalf. The proper way to address a person of high rank that you do not know intimately would be with formal personal pronouns, and by using the familiars instead, as you perhaps would to a servant, the Mouth and Denethor show how little they think of the Wizard.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original. I'll start it off with the German translation - the older one, as I don't have the newer, and have no idea what it did to these quotes in its often unsuccessful attempt to modernize the text. Perhaps someone else has it and can compare.

The German translation (by Carroux) uses the archaic "Ihr" and "Euch" as the formal personal pronoun, then switches to "Du" when Éowyn speaks to Aragorn. It gives her speech a very personal, almost intimate feeling and makes the indirect declaration of love stand out from the rest of their previous conversation. Since the familiar and formal pronouns are still in use today, it doesn't feel that strange or far away to a modern reader.

Between this and your immediately prior post, Esty, I'm curious about the German (and other languages, for those Downers who can answer) translation in general: do the translators imitate the Appendix F note that Hobbits only use the familiar pronouns throughout the entirety of the whole? Or is there some considered nuance (for example, might Frodo use the formal pronouns when speaking to the Elves, while Sam might never think to use it... or, for another example, does the Master/Servant Frodo/Sam relationship demonstrate it)?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for your comments on the Swedish translation and your understanding of these passages, Skip! Apparently Sweden must be the Shire, since the formal pronoun has disappeared there too!

I quite agree with you that Denethor and the Mouth use the familiar form as an insult - I do look forward to discussing those passages! Coming soon to a thread near you...

Formy, I checked the German translation of Appendix F, Section II, and it is precisely the same as the original. No changes there. I'm not familiar with the whole of the translated book, but I did look to see if Sam used a deferential form when speaking to Frodo, and that is not the case. Apparently the translator paid attention to Tolkien's words, and all of the hobbits use the familiar form.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Several people have already posted about the other two incidents involving "thee" and "thou": Denethor's final conversation with Gandalf in "The Pyre of Denethor", and the Mouth of Sauron's words to Aragorn and Gandalf in "The Black Gate Opens". Since the usage of the familiar personal pronoun is similar in these two passages (and completely different from Éowyn's use), we can discuss them without pause.

One of the uses of the familiar personal pronoun is talking down to other persons. That takes place when non-family adults speak with children, for example, but also in less friendly situations like when some people speak down at foreigners as if they were not adults. And of course it also can take place when one person insults another and uses the familiar form - in German, for example, saying "Du Idiot!" to a stranger.

I find it very noteworthy that Denethor, who was always polite previously, turns insolent in regard to Gandalf at the end of his life. He rejects any kind of authority the wizard might have, and though he may not know precisely which nature Mithrandir has as a Maia, he must realize that the wizard is higher than himself. But he lashes out at him, "Since when has the Lord of Gondor been answerable to thee?" He accuses Gandalf of attempting to make him a tool for his own purposes. The Steward no longer wants to be under other authority and expresses that violently, using "thee" and "thou" to emphasize his point.

Christopher Tolkien speaks about this usage briefly in HoME 12, The Peoples of Middle-earth and quotes his father:

Where thou, thee, thy appears it is used mainly to mark a use of the familiar form where that was not usual. For instance its use by Denethor in his last madness to Gandalf, and by the Messenger of Sauron, was in both cases intended to be contemptuous. But elsewhere it is ocasionally used to indicate a deliberate change to a form of affection or endearment.

The last sentence must refer to the Éowyn passage.

[Inziladun]

Quite right about Denethor and the Mouth.

Compare the Mouth's insolence when treating with Gandalf to the polite edginess with which the emissary from Mordor spoke with the Dwarves of Erebor, using "you", "your", and "yours". When feigning friendship, it wouldn't do to seem too condescending.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Oh, that's an excellent comparison, Inzil! That shows us readers that the use of the deferential or familiar personal pronouns has nothing to do with the writing style - there's definitely an agenda to it!

[The Might]

Form, I checked the letters, but couldn't find the reference you mentioned.

Looking at the Silmarillion it is interesting to note that "thee" and "thine" are mostly used by Eru and by the Valar. It makes sense since the Valar and Eru were close to one another.

Eru to Aule:

But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.

Aule to Eru:

Yet the making of thing is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father. But what shall I do now, so that thou be not angry with me for ever? As a child to his father, I offer to thee these things, the work of the hands which thou hast made.

Mandos to Feanor:

But after that time this matter shall be set in peace and held redressed, if others will release thee.

Melkor to Ungoliant (perhaps also emotional? )

Therefore Melkor said to her: 'Do as I bid; and if thou hunger still when all is done, then I will give thee whatsoever thy lust may demand. Yea, with both hands.'

Later:

'Thou hast had thy doe. For with my power that I put into thee thy work was accomplished. I need thee no more.

A messenger of Manwe to Feanor:

Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.'

Ulmo to Turgon:

And Ulmo warned Turgon that he also lay under the Doom of Mandos, which Ulmo had no power to remove. 'Thus it may come to pass,' he said, 'that the curse of the Noldor shall find thee too ere the end, and treason awake within thy walls. Then they shall be in peril of fire. But if this peril draweth nigh indeed, then even from Nevrast one shall come to warn thee, and from him beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men.

Manwe to Melkor:

'This kingdom thou shalt not take for thine own, wrongfully, for many others have laboured here do less than thou.'

The other two passages with extensive use are Gwindor to Turin as a friend and Glaurung to Turin in the way Denethor and Mouth of Sauron use it.


PS: Sorry, I just noticed the thread title says "in Lord of the Rings", I hope adding the Silm to the dicussion is ok.